摘要：

在 Lex Fridman 对 Telegram 创始人兼 CEO Pavel Durov的访谈中，Durov深入阐释了其贯穿人生与事业的核心信仰 —— 自由至上。早年从苏联到意大利的生活经历，让他深刻体会到自由对社会活力与个人创造力的重要性，也奠定了 "自由比金钱更重要" 的价值观。

他以极致自律践行理念：不饮酒、不使用智能手机，过着极简的 "僧侣式生活"，认为专注力是最宝贵的资产，自律是创造力的前提。在 Telegram 的运营中，他坚守速度、安全、自由三大原则，通过分布式服务器架构实现抗审查设计，拒绝向任何政府交出用户数据。面对法国被捕、俄罗斯与伊朗的封禁等压力，他始终坚持立场，甚至通过技术创新与社区力量突破封锁。

谈及商业模式，Telegram 在 2024 年实现盈利，主要依赖 Premium 订阅服务与非追踪式情境广告，拒绝牺牲用户隐私换取收益。此外，Durov还分享了与哥哥共同开发 VK 和 Telegram 的历程、对区块链技术（TON）的布局、比特币的长期看好，以及个人经历的暗杀企图与精子捐赠的争议决策，展现了一位在数字时代坚守原则、对抗强权的理想主义者形象。

以下为Lex Fridman 专访 Pavel Durov 视频英文字幕，借助工具翻译成中文字幕。（来源：宛才兔）

0:00 – Introduction

Lex Fridman: The following is a conversation with Pavel Durov, founder and CEO of Telegram, one of the most popular messaging platforms in the world.

Lex Fridman： 以下是我与 Pavel Durov 的对话，他是 Telegram 的创始人兼首席执行官，这是全球最受欢迎的通讯平台之一。

Telegram has over a billion users and is known for its focus on privacy, speed, and freedom.

Telegram 拥有超过十亿用户，以其注重隐私、速度与自由而闻名。

This conversation explores Pavel’s philosophy, discipline, and the challenges he faced in building a platform that protects freedom of speech in a world of increasing surveillance and censorship.

这次对话探讨了 Pavel 的哲学观、他的自律，以及在一个充满监控与审查的世界中，建立一个维护言论自由的平台所面临的挑战。

This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, check out our sponsors in the description.

这里是 Lex Fridman 播客节目。若您愿意支持，请查看节目说明中的赞助信息。

3:07 – Philosophy of Freedom

Lex Fridman: You’ve been an advocate for freedom for many years, writing that you should be ready to risk everything for freedom. What were some influences and insights that help you arrive at this value of human freedom?

Lex Fridman： 多年来你一直是自由的倡导者，你曾写道"人应当为自由准备好付出一切"。有哪些影响或见解让你形成了这种对人类自由的价值观？

Pavel Durov: I got to experience the difference between a society with freedom and a society without freedom pretty early in life.

Pavel Durov： 我很早就体会到了自由社会与不自由社会之间的差别。

I was four years old when my family moved from the Soviet Union to northern Italy.

当我四岁时，家人从苏联搬到了意大利北部。

I could see that a society without freedom cannot enjoy the abundance of opinions, of ideas, of goods and services.

我能明显看到，一个没有自由的社会无法享有多元的观点、思想、商品与服务的丰富性。

Even for a four or five-year-old kid, it was obvious.

即使对一个四五岁的孩子来说，这也显而易见。

You can’t experience all the toys, the ice cream, the cartoons in the Soviet Union that you could access in Italy.

在苏联，你无法像在意大利那样体验各种玩具、冰淇淋和动画片。

And then I got to realize something even more important — you don’t get to contribute to this abundance without freedom.

随后我明白了更重要的一点——没有自由，你也无法为这种丰富做出贡献。

At this point it was pretty obvious to me.

从那时起，这一点对我来说已经非常明确。

Lex Fridman: You also wrote "Свобода дороже денег", which means "Freedom matters more than money." How do you prevent these values for freedom from being corrupted by money, power, or influence?

Lex Fridman： 你还写过"Свобода дороже денег"（自由比金钱更重要）。那你如何防止自由的价值被金钱、权力或影响力腐蚀？

Pavel Durov: The biggest enemies of freedom are fear and greed. So you make sure they don’t stand in your way.

Pavel Durov： 自由最大的敌人是恐惧与贪婪。你必须确保它们不会阻碍你。

If you imagine the worst thing that can happen and make yourself comfortable with it, then there’s nothing more to be afraid of.

如果你能想象出最坏的情况并让自己接受它，那么你将无所畏惧。

So you stand your ground and remember that it’s worth living your life according to the principles you believe in.

因此你要坚守立场，并牢记：依照你所信仰的原则去生活是值得的。

Even if this life ends up being shorter than a longer life lived in slavery.

即便这样的生活可能比屈服于奴役的长命更短暂。

Lex Fridman: Do you contemplate your mortality? Do you think about death?

Lex Fridman： 你会思考死亡吗？

Pavel Durov: Oh yes.

Pavel Durov： 会的。

Lex Fridman: Are you afraid of it?

Lex Fridman： 你害怕死亡吗？

Pavel Durov: In a way, you have to go against your instinct of self-preservation, and it’s not easy.

Pavel Durov： 某种意义上说，你必须与自我保护的本能对抗，这并不容易。

We’re all biological beings, hard-coded to fear death.

我们都是生物体，被天性编程去惧怕死亡。

Nobody wants to die. But when you approach it rationally — you live and then you die.

没有人想死，但理性来看，生命就是：你活着，然后死去。

There’s no such thing as "your death" in your life — you stop experiencing life once you die.

在生命中并不存在"你的死亡"这一体验——死亡那一刻，你已无法再感知生命。

So you have to ask: is it worth living a life full of fear of death, or is it better to forget it and live in a way that makes you immune to fear?

所以你要问自己：是过一种惧怕死亡的生活，还是干脆忘记它，活得无所畏惧？

At the same time, remember death exists, so that every day would count.

同时要记住死亡的存在，这样每一天才有意义。

Lex Fridman: Remembering death makes you deeply feel every moment you do get.

Lex Fridman： 记得死亡的存在，会让你更加深切地感受当下的每一刻。

Pavel Durov: That’s why I love reminding myself that I can die any day.

Pavel Durov： 这就是为什么我喜欢提醒自己：我随时可能死去。

06:15 – No Alcohol

Lex Fridman: You don’t drink alcohol, you don’t smoke, you don’t do drugs. What led you to that decision?

Lex Fridman： 你不喝酒、不抽烟、也不吸毒。是什么让你做出这样的选择？

Pavel Durov: It was pretty natural. My father is a scholar. He used to say that alcohol destroys neurons and brain connections.

Pavel Durov： 这对我来说是很自然的决定。我的父亲是一位学者，他常说酒精会破坏神经元与脑部连接。

I thought, "Why would I want that?"

我想，"那我为什么要这样做呢？"

Then when I was 17, I realized that all addictions are just ways of escaping reality.

后来在我17岁时，我意识到所有成瘾行为都只是逃避现实的一种方式。

I didn’t want to escape reality. I wanted to change it.

我并不想逃避现实，我想去改变它。

Lex Fridman: It’s interesting — most people drink socially, to relax or bond. Do you find it difficult to socialize without it?

Lex Fridman： 很有趣——大多数人喝酒是为了社交、放松或建立联系。你觉得不喝酒会让社交变得困难吗？

Pavel Durov: Not really. I’m perfectly comfortable with people drinking around me.

Pavel Durov： 完全不会。我在别人喝酒时也能自在地相处。

But I noticed that people who drink often believe alcohol makes them more interesting or funny. It’s an illusion.

但我注意到常喝酒的人常以为酒精让自己更有趣或更幽默——那是一种错觉。

In reality, it just lowers your awareness and dulls your mind.

实际上，它只是降低了你的觉察力，使头脑迟钝。

And if you can’t be interesting when you’re sober, you probably aren’t interesting at all.

如果你在清醒时都无法有趣，那你很可能本身就不有趣。

Lex Fridman: That’s a powerful way to put it. So you just decided early on that you would never try it?

Lex Fridman： 说得真好。所以你从早期就决定彻底不碰？

Pavel Durov: Yes, and I kept this rule ever since.

Pavel Durov： 是的，从那以后我一直坚持这条原则。

I also don’t drink coffee.

我也不喝咖啡。

Lex Fridman: No coffee?

Lex Fridman： 不喝咖啡？

Pavel Durov: Never.

Pavel Durov： 从未喝过。

I want my body to be as pure a system as possible, without relying on external stimulants or depressants.

我希望自己的身体尽可能保持纯净，不依赖任何外部刺激物或抑制剂。

14:20 – No Phone

Lex Fridman: You also don’t use a smartphone. You use a device with no SIM card. Why?

Lex Fridman： 你也不用智能手机，而是用一台没有 SIM 卡的设备。为什么？

Pavel Durov: Because phones are the most powerful surveillance devices ever created.

Pavel Durov： 因为手机是人类创造的最强大的监控设备。

Even if you switch them off, some of them can still track your location.

即便你把它关掉，有些手机仍然能追踪你的位置。

I prefer to use an iPod touch or an old phone without a SIM card, just connected to Wi-Fi when needed.

我更喜欢用 iPod touch 或没有 SIM 卡的老款手机，只在需要时连接 Wi-Fi。

That’s enough for communication and music.

这对通信与听音乐来说已经足够了。

Lex Fridman: But you’re the CEO of Telegram. How do you manage without having a phone on you all the time?

Lex Fridman： 但你是 Telegram 的 CEO，没有手机怎么随时管理事务？

Pavel Durov: I have my team and my devices where I need them.

Pavel Durov： 我的团队和设备在需要的时候都会在。

I don’t need to be constantly connected.

我不需要时时刻刻保持在线。

Being disconnected helps me focus.

保持离线让我更专注。

When you’re always online, you become reactive instead of proactive.

如果你总是在线，就会变得被动而非主动。

I prefer to design my day, not let notifications design it for me.

我宁愿自己设计一天的节奏，而不是被通知操控。

Lex Fridman: That’s rare discipline.

Lex Fridman： 这是一种罕见的自律。

Pavel Durov: It’s not even discipline once you understand the value of your attention.

Pavel Durov： 一旦你理解专注力的价值，这甚至算不上自律。

Your attention is the most valuable thing you have.

注意力是你最宝贵的资产。

Don’t give it away for free.

不要白白把它送出去。

20:16 – Discipline

Lex Fridman: So you live a life of extreme discipline — no alcohol, no phone, no coffee. How do you maintain such discipline day after day?

Lex Fridman： 所以你过着极度自律的生活——不喝酒、不用手机、不喝咖啡。你是如何日复一日保持这样的自律的？

Pavel Durov: It doesn’t feel like discipline anymore. It feels like freedom.

Pavel Durov： 这对我来说已经不像是自律，而更像是一种自由。

Most people think discipline means limitation. To me, it’s liberation.

大多数人认为自律意味着限制，对我而言，它代表解放。

When you remove distractions and addictions, you become free to create, to think.

当你消除干扰与成瘾后，你才真正获得创造与思考的自由。

Discipline is a prerequisite for creativity.

自律是创造力的前提。

Lex Fridman: You once said that you live like a monk. Do you mean that literally or metaphorically?

Lex Fridman： 你曾说过自己像僧侣一样生活，这是字面意义上的，还是比喻？

Pavel Durov: Both. My lifestyle is minimalistic. I eat once a day, sleep on a hard surface, and keep very few possessions.

Pavel Durov： 两者都是。我的生活极度简约：我每天只吃一顿饭，睡在硬床上，拥有极少的物品。

I try to own nothing I can’t carry.

我尽量不拥有任何无法随身携带的东西。

It’s not asceticism for its own sake — it’s about lightness, focus, and freedom.

这并非为了禁欲本身，而是为了轻盈、专注与自由。

Lex Fridman: Does that ever make you lonely?

Lex Fridman： 这样生活会让你感到孤独吗？

Pavel Durov: Not really. Loneliness is a problem only if you depend on other people for meaning.

Pavel Durov： 不会。孤独只有在你依赖他人寻找意义时才是问题。

If your purpose comes from within, solitude becomes strength.

如果你的目标来自内心，孤独就会变成力量。

I can spend days alone thinking, reading, writing — that’s my ideal state.

我可以独自待上好几天，只思考、阅读、写作——那是我理想的状态。

41:28 – Telegram: Lean Philosophy, Privacy, and Geopolitics

Lex Fridman: Let’s talk about Telegram. It has over a billion users now. What is the core philosophy behind Telegram?

Lex Fridman： 我们来谈谈 Telegram。现在它已有超过十亿用户。Telegram 背后的核心理念是什么？

Pavel Durov: Telegram was built around three principles: speed, security, and freedom.

Pavel Durov： Telegram 建立在三项原则之上：速度、安全与自由。

We started small, with just a few engineers. Our focus was efficiency — lean development, no bureaucracy, no meetings.

我们起步很小，仅有几个工程师。我们的重点是高效——精简开发、零官僚、无会议。

I believe great products are created by small, independent teams with full responsibility.

我相信伟大的产品来自小而独立、对成果完全负责的团队。

Lex Fridman: That sounds like a strong engineering culture.

Lex Fridman： 这听起来像是非常强的工程文化。

Pavel Durov: Absolutely. At Telegram, every engineer knows what they’re building and why.

Pavel Durov： 没错。在 Telegram，每位工程师都清楚自己在做什么、为什么而做。

There’s no middle management, no endless discussions.

我们没有中层管理，也没有无休止的讨论。

People just build. And they take pride in their work.

每个人都只管动手创造，并以此为荣。

Lex Fridman: That’s rare for a billion-user company.

Lex Fridman： 对一个拥有十亿用户的公司来说，这非常罕见。

Pavel Durov: It’s the only way to stay fast. Bureaucracy kills innovation.

Pavel Durov： 这是保持敏捷的唯一方式。官僚体制扼杀创新。

Lex Fridman: Telegram is often described as "the app of freedom." What does freedom mean to you in this context?

Lex Fridman： Telegram 常被称为"自由之应用"。在你看来，自由在这个语境下意味着什么？

Pavel Durov: It means users own their data, their privacy, their communication.

Pavel Durov： 它意味着用户拥有自己的数据、隐私与交流权。

Telegram doesn’t sell data, doesn’t show targeted ads, doesn’t manipulate users.

Telegram 不出售数据、不做定向广告、不操控用户行为。

I think privacy is not a luxury — it’s a basic human right.

我认为隐私不是奢侈品，而是基本人权。

Lex Fridman: Telegram has been banned or restricted in several countries. Why do you think governments fear it?

Lex Fridman： Telegram 在多个国家被封禁或限制。你认为政府为何害怕它？

Pavel Durov: Because it empowers people. Governments fear what they can’t control.

Pavel Durov： 因为它赋予了人们力量。政府害怕任何他们无法控制的东西。

Telegram allows citizens to organize, to speak freely, to resist propaganda.

Telegram 让公民可以组织、自由发声、抵制宣传。

For authoritarian regimes, that’s unacceptable.

对于独裁政权来说，这是不可容忍的。

Lex Fridman: How do you respond when they demand user data or censorship?

Lex Fridman： 当政府要求你提供用户数据或进行审查时，你怎么应对？

Pavel Durov: We simply say no.

Pavel Durov： 我们直接拒绝。

Telegram’s servers are distributed globally. There’s no central location that any government can shut down.

Telegram 的服务器分布在全球，没有任何政府可以一键封锁。

Lex Fridman: So it’s censorship-resistant by design.

Lex Fridman： 所以它在设计上就具备抗审查性。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. Freedom must be built into the architecture, not just written in policy.

Pavel Durov： 没错。自由必须写进架构，而不是写进条文。

Lex Fridman: That’s a profound way to think about software.

Lex Fridman： 这是种极具深意的软件哲学。

Pavel Durov: Software is political, whether we admit it or not.

Pavel Durov： 软件本身就是政治性的，不论我们是否承认。

It shapes how people communicate, what they can say, and whether they can be heard.

它决定人们如何交流、能说什么、能否被听见。

That’s power. And with power comes responsibility.

这就是力量，而力量意味着责任。

56:50 – Arrest in France

Lex Fridman: Let’s talk about what happened in France. In August 2024, you were arrested at Bourges Airport. The reports were confusing, and rumors spread quickly. What really happened?

Lex Fridman： 我们来谈谈在法国发生的事情。2024 年 8 月，你在布尔日机场被捕。报道非常混乱，谣言迅速蔓延。到底发生了什么？

Pavel Durov: I was detained for about two days, and there was a lot of misinformation. It all started when I arrived in France for meetings and was stopped by border police.

Pavel Durov： 我被拘留了大约两天，期间流传了很多错误信息。事情始于我抵达法国准备开会时，被边境警察拦下。

They said there was an "investigation" regarding Telegram.

他们称与 Telegram 有关的"调查"正在进行。

They didn’t explain what kind of investigation.

他们并没有解释是什么性质的调查。

It was all very vague.

一切都非常模糊。

Lex Fridman: Was this the first time a government detained you like this?

Lex Fridman： 这是你第一次被政府这样拘留吗？

Pavel Durov: Yes, the first and hopefully the last.

Pavel Durov： 是的，第一次，也希望是最后一次。

But I wasn’t surprised. We’ve had governments pressuring us for years to hand over user data or introduce censorship.

但我并不意外。多年来，政府一直在施压，要我们交出用户数据或实行审查。

France is a democratic country, so I expected due process.

法国是一个民主国家，我本以为会有正当程序。

But what I saw felt closer to political theater.

但我所见更像是一场政治表演。

Lex Fridman: How so?

Lex Fridman： 怎么说？

Pavel Durov: There were headlines saying Telegram was being investigated for "criminal activity," even though no concrete evidence was ever presented.

Pavel Durov： 有媒体头条称 Telegram 因"犯罪活动"被调查，但从未拿出任何确凿证据。

They didn’t accuse me personally of any wrongdoing.

他们并没有指控我个人有任何罪行。

It was all very abstract — something about "misuse of technology."

一切都非常抽象——类似"技术被滥用"之类的说法。

I cooperated fully, answered all their questions, and was released without any charges.

我全程配合，回答了所有问题，最终无罪释放。

Lex Fridman: But the news coverage made it sound like you were under serious investigation.

Lex Fridman： 但新闻报道让人感觉你好像陷入了严重调查。

Pavel Durov: That’s the modern media ecosystem. Once a rumor starts, everyone amplifies it.

Pavel Durov： 这就是当今媒体生态。一旦谣言出现，所有人都会放大它。

It’s like a virus — misinformation spreads faster than facts.

它就像病毒——错误信息传播得比真相更快。

And sometimes, powerful interests encourage that.

而有时，权力集团还会推动这种传播。

Lex Fridman: Were you treated fairly while in custody?

Lex Fridman： 你在拘留期间受到公平对待了吗？

Pavel Durov: Physically, yes. I wasn’t mistreated. But it was clear the process was meant to pressure me.

Pavel Durov： 身体上是的，我没有被虐待。但很明显，这个过程是为了施压。

To make an example out of me, perhaps.

也许是为了"杀鸡儆猴"。

Lex Fridman: Do you think any of this was connected to Telegram’s refusal to cooperate with data requests from governments?

Lex Fridman： 你认为这是否与 Telegram 拒绝配合政府的数据要求有关？

Pavel Durov: Absolutely. Telegram has always refused to hand over private data. That upsets some governments.

Pavel Durov： 绝对有关。Telegram 一直拒绝交出用户隐私数据，这让某些政府不满。

In a way, this arrest was a message — to intimidate, to discredit.

某种意义上，这次逮捕是一种讯号——恐吓与抹黑。

But it had the opposite effect.

但结果恰恰相反。

Lex Fridman: In what sense?

Pavel Durov: The more pressure you apply to people who value freedom, the stronger they become.

Pavel Durov： 当你越是向重视自由的人施压，他们就越坚强。

People saw through the political nature of the whole situation.

人们看穿了这一切背后的政治性。

Telegram’s popularity grew even faster after that.

之后 Telegram 的人气反而更高了。

Lex Fridman: So you see this as a turning point?

Lex Fridman： 所以你认为这是一个转折点？

Pavel Durov: Yes, it reminded the world why privacy matters.

Pavel Durov： 是的，它提醒了世界隐私为何重要。

You can’t have democracy without private communication.

没有私密通信，就没有民主。

Lex Fridman: That’s powerful. Were you angry about the situation?

Lex Fridman： 那确实很有力量。你当时愤怒吗？

Pavel Durov: I was calm. Anger clouds judgment.

Pavel Durov： 我很冷静。愤怒会模糊判断。

I focused on what I could control — answering clearly, staying truthful, keeping dignity.

我专注于自己能控制的事情——清晰回答、保持真实与尊严。

Lex Fridman: What did you do after being released?

Lex Fridman： 你被释放后做了什么？

Pavel Durov: I went for a long walk. No security, no entourage. Just air and freedom.

Pavel Durov： 我去长时间散步。没有保镖、没有随从。只有空气与自由。

I was grateful to breathe freely again.

我很感激还能再次自由地呼吸。

1:13:01 – Romanian Elections

Lex Fridman: Around that time, Telegram was accused of influencing elections in Romania. What was that about?

Lex Fridman： 大约在同一时期，Telegram 被指控"干预罗马尼亚选举"。那是怎么回事？

Pavel Durov: It was another misunderstanding — or perhaps deliberate disinformation.

Pavel Durov： 那又是一场误解——或者更确切地说，是刻意制造的虚假信息。

Some local politicians claimed that Telegram channels were being used to coordinate protests or political campaigns.

一些当地政客声称 Telegram 频道被用来组织抗议或政治活动。

That’s not something Telegram controls.

这不是 Telegram 能控制的事情。

We don’t moderate private communications unless they involve clear criminal behavior, like terrorism.

除非涉及明确的犯罪行为（如恐怖活动），否则我们不会干涉私人通信。

Lex Fridman: But politicians and governments often use "election interference" as a pretext to regulate speech.

Lex Fridman： 但政客和政府常以"选举干预"为借口来限制言论。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. It’s the new "terrorism."

Pavel Durov： 没错。这是新时代的"恐怖主义"借口。

Before, they said they needed to censor for "national security." Now it’s "to protect elections."

过去他们说要以"国家安全"为由实行审查，现在换成"保护选举"。

Either way, the result is the same: restricting speech.

无论借口是什么，结果都是一样的——限制言论。

Lex Fridman: Did you ever meet with any Romanian officials about it?

Lex Fridman： 你有因此与罗马尼亚官员会面吗？

Pavel Durov: No. I don’t believe in backroom deals. Telegram’s stance is clear and public.

Pavel Durov： 没有。我不相信暗箱操作。Telegram 的立场清晰且公开。

Governments know where we stand: we protect user privacy.

各国政府都知道我们的立场：我们保护用户隐私。

Lex Fridman: Did this affect Telegram’s operations in Romania?

Lex Fridman： 这是否影响了 Telegram 在罗马尼亚的运营？

Pavel Durov: Not really. Telegram actually grew faster after those accusations.

Pavel Durov： 几乎没有。事实上，Telegram 在那之后增长更快。

When governments attack free speech, people look for alternatives.

当政府打压言论自由时，人们反而会寻找替代方案。

Lex Fridman: Why do you think governments keep repeating this pattern — first praising free speech, then restricting it when it’s inconvenient?

Lex Fridman： 为什么政府总是重复这种模式——先赞美言论自由，一旦不利于自己就加以限制？

Pavel Durov: Because power corrupts perception.

Pavel Durov： 因为权力会腐蚀认知。

When you are in power, criticism feels like chaos.

当你掌权时，批评会让你觉得秩序正在崩溃。

You start believing that control equals stability.

你会开始认为控制就是稳定。

But in reality, censorship weakens societies.

但实际上，审查只会削弱社会。

Lex Fridman： 为什么？

Pavel Durov: Because it makes people fearful to think. Fear kills innovation.

Pavel Durov： 因为它让人们害怕思考。而恐惧扼杀创新。

If people can’t speak freely, they stop imagining freely.

当人们不能自由表达时，他们也就无法自由想象。

And a society without imagination stops evolving.

而没有想象力的社会终将停止进化。

Lex Fridman: Do you think Western democracies are at risk of becoming authoritarian under the guise of "protection"?

Lex Fridman： 你认为西方民主国家是否有可能在"保护"之名下变得独裁？

Pavel Durov: Yes, that’s already happening in some ways.

Pavel Durov： 是的，从某种意义上说，这已经在发生。

The line between democracy and control is thinner than people think.

民主与控制之间的界限比人们想象的要薄得多。

Lex Fridman: And once that line is crossed, it’s hard to go back.

Lex Fridman： 一旦跨越这条线，就很难回头了。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. Freedom dies not in one blow, but in a thousand small cuts.

Pavel Durov： 没错。自由的消亡不是一击毙命，而是千刀万剐的过程。

Every new "reasonable" restriction is another cut.

每一个看似"合理"的新限制，都是又一刀。

And one day you wake up, and realize you’ve been silenced.

直到某天醒来，你才发现自己已被噤声。

Lex Fridman: That’s haunting.

Lex Fridman： 真是令人警醒。

Pavel Durov: It should be. Because it’s happening slowly, everywhere.

Pavel Durov： 的确该如此警醒。因为这一切正在慢慢地、到处发生。

1:23:56 – Power and Corruption

Lex Fridman: Let’s talk about power. What do you think power does to people?

Lex Fridman： 我们来谈谈权力。你认为权力会让人变成什么样？

Pavel Durov: Power reveals character.

Pavel Durov： 权力揭示人性。

It doesn’t corrupt everyone; it just exposes who they already are.

它并不会腐化所有人，而是让人原本的样子暴露出来。

If someone is kind and disciplined before gaining power, they usually remain that way.

如果一个人在获得权力之前善良且自律，通常会保持那样。

But if someone is insecure, greedy, or fearful, power magnifies those flaws.

但若一个人内心不安、贪婪或恐惧，权力就会放大这些缺陷。

Lex Fridman: So power doesn’t change people — it amplifies them.

Lex Fridman： 所以权力不是改变人，而是放大人？

Pavel Durov: Exactly. It’s like a lens.

Pavel Durov： 没错。它就像一面放大镜。

Power focuses the light of your soul, for better or worse.

权力会聚焦灵魂的光芒——无论善恶。

Lex Fridman: You’ve been offered power in different forms — money, influence, control. You’ve rejected most of it. Why?

Lex Fridman： 你曾被提供过各种形式的权力——金钱、影响力、控制力。而你拒绝了大部分。为什么？

Pavel Durov: Because every form of power comes with a trap.

Pavel Durov： 因为每种权力都伴随着陷阱。

When you start enjoying control over people, you lose control over yourself.

当你开始享受控制他人时，你就失去了对自己的控制。

I’d rather be free than powerful.

我宁愿自由，也不愿掌权。

Lex Fridman: Most people wouldn’t say that.

Lex Fridman： 大多数人不会这么说。

Pavel Durov: That’s why most people aren’t free.

Pavel Durov： 所以大多数人并不真正自由。

They mistake comfort for freedom, hierarchy for meaning.

他们把舒适误认为自由，把等级误认为意义。

True freedom requires sacrifice.

真正的自由需要牺牲。

Lex Fridman: What kind of sacrifice?

Lex Fridman： 什么样的牺牲？

Pavel Durov: The willingness to be misunderstood.

Pavel Durov： 被误解的勇气。

To lose status, money, approval — everything external — for something internal.

为了内在的信念，甘愿失去地位、金钱、他人的认同。

Lex Fridman: Has power ever tempted you?

Lex Fridman： 权力有没有诱惑过你？

Pavel Durov: Of course. Power tempts everyone.

Pavel Durov： 当然有。权力会诱惑每一个人。

The difference is whether you notice it.

区别在于你是否察觉到这种诱惑。

I try to live like a monk running a tech company.

我努力像一个经营科技公司的僧侣那样生活。

Lex Fridman: That’s a great image. A monk with code.

Lex Fridman： 很好的比喻——写代码的僧侣。

Pavel Durov: (laughs) Yes. I think discipline and detachment protect you from corruption.

Pavel Durov： （笑）是的。我认为自律与超然能让人免于腐败。

Lex Fridman: But detachment can make leadership difficult. How do you balance empathy with distance?

Lex Fridman： 但超然也会让领导变得困难。你如何在共情与距离之间取得平衡？

Pavel Durov: By focusing on purpose, not emotion.

Pavel Durov： 通过专注目标，而非情绪。

You don’t have to feel everything to understand it.

你不需要感受一切，才能理解一切。

Leadership isn’t about being liked; it’s about being useful.

领导力不是取悦别人，而是让自己有用。

Lex Fridman: So you see leadership as service.

Lex Fridman： 所以你认为领导是一种服务？

Pavel Durov: Yes, service to truth.

Pavel Durov： 是的——对真理的服务。

Not to an ideology, not to a flag, not to a company — but to truth.

不是服务于某种意识形态、旗帜或公司，而是服务于真理。

Lex Fridman: You said something powerful there — "service to truth." That’s rare among tech leaders.

Lex Fridman： 你刚才那句话很有力量——"服务于真理"。这在科技领袖中非常罕见。

Pavel Durov: Truth doesn’t make you rich, but it makes you real.

Pavel Durov： 真理不会让你富有，但会让你真实。

And reality is more valuable than illusion.

而真实，比幻象更珍贵。

Lex Fridman: That’s beautifully said.

Lex Fridman： 说得太美了。

Pavel Durov: Thank you. I just try to remind myself that everything external fades.

Pavel Durov： 谢谢。我只是时常提醒自己，一切外在的终将消逝。

Only principles last.

唯有原则永存。

Lex Fridman: That’s the kind of power that doesn’t corrupt.

Lex Fridman： 那才是不会腐化的力量。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. The power of integrity.

Pavel Durov： 没错——正直的力量。

1:33:29 – Intense Education

Lex Fridman: Let’s talk about your childhood and education. You and your brother Nikolai are both incredibly accomplished. What was your early education like?

Lex Fridman： 我们来谈谈你的童年和教育。你和你的哥哥 Nikolai 都非常出色。你小时候的教育是怎样的？

Pavel Durov: Our parents were academics. My father was a professor of classical philology — he taught Latin and Ancient Greek.

Pavel Durov： 我们的父母都是学者。父亲是古典语言学教授，教授拉丁语和古希腊语。

He believed language trains the mind to think clearly.

他认为语言能训练人类思维的清晰度。

My mother was a teacher as well, very demanding but loving.

我的母亲也是教师，非常严格但也充满爱心。

We were surrounded by books all the time.

我们从小被书籍包围。

Lex Fridman: Were you pushed hard academically?

Lex Fridman： 你在学业上被逼得很紧吗？

Pavel Durov: Extremely. My father didn’t believe in "childhood."

Pavel Durov： 非常紧。他的信念是"童年不是用来浪费的"。

He thought childhood was the time to build discipline and focus.

他认为童年应该用来培养自律与专注。

I remember when I was five, he made me memorize Latin grammar tables.

我记得我五岁时，他让我背拉丁语语法表。

I cried at first, but later I was grateful.

起初我哭着背，但后来心怀感激。

Lex Fridman: That’s intense.

Lex Fridman： 听起来很严苛。

Pavel Durov: It was. But it shaped my mind.

Pavel Durov： 的确。但它塑造了我的思维方式。

Learning complex languages at an early age makes logic natural.

早期学习复杂语言会让逻辑思考变得自然。

You start to see structure in everything.

你会开始在一切事物中看到结构。

Lex Fridman: Was your brother Nikolai similar?

Lex Fridman： 你的哥哥 Nikolai 也是这样吗？

Pavel Durov: Yes, but he went even further.

Pavel Durov： 是的，但他走得更远。

He was a prodigy in mathematics.

他是个数学神童。

While I played with toys, he played with equations.

当我还在玩玩具时，他已经在玩方程式。

Lex Fridman: Did your parents compare you?

Lex Fridman： 你的父母会比较你们兄弟俩吗？

Pavel Durov: Constantly.

Pavel Durov： 经常。

It wasn’t always easy living in his shadow.

生活在他阴影下并不容易。

But instead of jealousy, I chose to learn from him.

但我没有嫉妒，而是选择向他学习。

Lex Fridman: What kind of learner were you?

Lex Fridman： 你是怎样的学习者？

Pavel Durov: Obsessive.

Pavel Durov： 痴迷型的。

When I found something interesting, I would dive in completely.

一旦对某事感兴趣，我就会全身心投入。

For example, when I discovered programming, I didn’t sleep for days.

比如我发现编程后，几天不睡觉。

I would code until I fell asleep at the keyboard.

一直写代码到趴在键盘上睡着。

Lex Fridman: You were self-taught?

Lex Fridman： 你是自学的吗？

Pavel Durov: Yes. My school didn’t teach computer science, so I learned from books.

Pavel Durov： 是的。学校不教计算机科学，我就从书里学。

My father thought I was wasting time, until I showed him my first game.

父亲以为我在浪费时间，直到我给他看我做的第一个游戏。

He smiled — which was rare.

他笑了——那是少见的时刻。

Lex Fridman: What kind of game was it?

Lex Fridman： 那是什么游戏？

Pavel Durov: A simple one, but I created it from scratch.

Pavel Durov： 很简单的游戏，但我完全从零做起。

It was about two tanks fighting each other on a pixel battlefield.

两辆坦克在像素战场上对战。

Very basic, but for me it was magic — to create something that moved, reacted, lived.

很基础，但对我来说充满魔力——能创造出会动、会反应、像生命的东西。

Lex Fridman: Did your parents eventually appreciate your path into technology?

Lex Fridman： 你的父母后来认可你选择科技这条路了吗？

Pavel Durov: Eventually, yes.

Pavel Durov： 最终认可了。

When they saw that technology could also be an art form.

当他们看到科技也可以是一种艺术形式时。

Lex Fridman: That’s a beautiful way to put it — "technology as art."

Lex Fridman： 这句话真美——"科技即艺术"。

Pavel Durov: It is.

Pavel Durov： 确实如此。

Writing code is like composing music — both require structure, rhythm, and emotion.

写代码就像作曲——都需要结构、节奏和情感。

Lex Fridman: What did discipline mean in your family?

Lex Fridman： 在你家庭中，自律意味着什么？

Pavel Durov: Discipline was everything.

Pavel Durov： 自律就是一切。

My father believed talent is nothing without consistency.

父亲认为，天赋若无持续性便毫无意义。

He’d say, "Even a genius who skips a day of work becomes average."

他常说："天才只要有一天懒惰，就变得平庸。"

That phrase stuck with me forever.

这句话我一生都记得。

Lex Fridman: You’ve clearly applied that principle.

Lex Fridman： 你显然贯彻了这个原则。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Every big thing in life starts with small, boring habits.

Pavel Durov： 是的。生活中一切伟大的事都始于微小而枯燥的习惯。

I learned that from my family.

这是我从家人那学到的。

1:45:29 – Nikolai Durov

Lex Fridman: Speaking of competition, your brother, Nikolai, is a mathematician, programmer, expert in cryptography. He has won the IMO gold medal three times and ICPC twice, with two PhDs in mathematics. What have you learned about life from him?

Lex Fridman： 说到竞争，你的哥哥 Nikolai 是数学家、程序员和密码学专家。他在国际数学奥林匹克中三获金牌，在编程竞赛 ICPC 中两次夺冠，还拥有两个数学博士学位。你从他身上学到了什么？

Pavel Durov: Everything. Practically everything I know, I learned from him.

Pavel Durov： 一切。几乎我所知道的一切，都是从他那学来的。

We shared a room as kids, our beds just a few feet apart.

我们小时候共用一个房间，床挨得很近。

I would ask him about dinosaurs, galaxies, black holes, Neanderthals — everything.

我会问他关于恐龙、星系、黑洞、尼安德特人——所有的问题。

He was my Wikipedia before Wikipedia existed.

在互联网出现前，他就是我的"维基百科"。

Lex Fridman: That’s beautiful.

Lex Fridman： 这真美好。

Pavel Durov: He was a prodigy. He started reading at three. By six, he was reading astronomy books with complex equations.

Pavel Durov： 他是个天才。三岁开始读书，六岁时就能读带复杂公式的天文学书籍。

Once he read such a book on a bus, people told my mother she was crazy to make a child read that.

有次他在公交上看书，旁人责怪我母亲，说她逼孩子太狠。

They didn’t realize he actually understood it.

他们不知道他真的看得懂。

He just had an incredible thirst for knowledge.

他对知识有着惊人的渴求。

Lex Fridman: What was he like as a person?

Lex Fridman： 他这个人是怎样的？

Pavel Durov: Incredibly modest and kind.

Pavel Durov： 极其谦逊和善良。

That’s something I’ve noticed in truly intelligent people — they’re usually kind.

我发现，真正聪明的人往往都善良。

Lex Fridman: That’s a rare combination.

Lex Fridman： 这种组合很少见。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Many people are smart but not wise. My brother is both.

Pavel Durov： 是的。许多人聪明却不睿智，而我哥哥兼具两者。

Lex Fridman: He’s famously private. He almost never gives interviews or appears in public. Why?

Lex Fridman： 他非常低调，几乎不接受采访，也很少公开露面。为什么？

Pavel Durov: He doesn’t need to.

Pavel Durov： 因为他根本不需要。

He’s not motivated by recognition or fame.

他从不被名声或认同驱动。

I tried to avoid publicity too, but I realized that silence can be dangerous.

我也曾尽量避开公众视线，但后来意识到沉默会带来危险。

Pavel Durov: When you’re too private, people fill the silence with lies.

Pavel Durov： 当你太沉默，谣言就会代替你说话。

Organizations that dislike Telegram start spreading false stories.

那些不喜欢 Telegram 的组织就会编造各种谎言。

So I had to step forward, not because I like fame, but to protect the truth.

所以我不得不站出来，不是因为我喜欢曝光，而是为了捍卫真相。

Lex Fridman: That’s a heavy burden — to represent both privacy and transparency.

Lex Fridman： 那是沉重的责任——既要代表隐私，又要保持透明。

Pavel Durov: It is. But someone has to do it.

Pavel Durov： 是的。但总得有人去做。

And I learned that courage from my brother too.

这种勇气，我同样是从我哥哥那里学到的。

1:49:58 – Programming and Video Games

Lex Fridman: You started coding at age ten, right? Your first creations were video games, and later, at twenty-one, you built the first version of VK single-handedly. Tell me about your programming journey that led to VK.

Lex Fridman： 你十岁就开始编程了，对吗？你最早做的是电子游戏，而在二十一岁时独自完成了 VK 的第一个版本。能讲讲你的编程历程吗？

Pavel Durov: I didn’t even have Internet access at first.

Pavel Durov： 起初我连上网的机会都没有。

I was fascinated by video games, but I didn’t have enough of them.

我非常迷恋电子游戏，但能玩的游戏太少。

So I decided to build my own.

所以我决定自己做游戏。

Lex Fridman: That’s how it always starts.

Lex Fridman： 所有程序员的故事都这么开始。

Pavel Durov: Yes, scarcity leads to creativity.

Pavel Durov： 没错，稀缺会激发创造力。

When you lack entertainment, you learn to create it.

当你缺乏娱乐时，你会自己去创造。

I started building simple two-dimensional games — turn-based strategies, puzzles.

我开始制作简单的二维游戏——回合制策略和解谜类。

My brother helped me optimize them.

哥哥帮我优化性能。

I remember once my game ran too slowly, and he showed me how to improve it.

记得有次游戏太卡，他教我怎么提升速度。

That’s how I learned about algorithms and optimization.

就这样我学会了算法与优化的概念。

Lex Fridman: So you learned by doing?

Lex Fridman： 所以你是通过实践学习的？

Pavel Durov: Exactly. It wasn’t "study first, code later." It was the opposite.

Pavel Durov： 没错。我不是"先学习后实践"，而是反过来。

First, I tried something; then I looked for the theory to explain it.

我先动手，再去找理论解释。

Lex Fridman: That’s the hacker spirit.

Lex Fridman： 这就是黑客精神。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Later, I even made games for my classmates.

Pavel Durov： 是的。后来我还为同学制作游戏。

We used to play tic-tac-toe — not the 3x3 version, but an infinite grid, five in a row.

我们那时玩"井字棋"——不是3×3，而是无限棋盘的"五连珠"。

It gets complicated fast.

这种玩法会变得很复杂。

My classmates were smart, math competition kids.

我的同学们很聪明，很多是数学竞赛冠军。

I wanted to win every time, so I created an AI opponent.

我想每次都赢，于是编了一个 AI 对手。

The computer calculated several moves ahead, like a primitive chess engine.

它会提前计算几步，就像原始的象棋引擎。

I trained against it until I could beat it every time.

我不断和它对弈，直到每次都能赢。

Eventually, no one wanted to play with me anymore.

最后没人愿意跟我玩了。

Lex Fridman: (laughs) You optimized the fun out of the game.

Lex Fridman：（笑）你把游戏的乐趣都优化没了。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. I killed the game.

Pavel Durov： 没错，我亲手"毁掉"了它。

But it taught me something important — competition drives improvement.

但这让我学到了重要的一课：竞争能驱动成长。

Lex Fridman: What languages were you using back then?

Lex Fridman： 那时你用的是什么语言？

Pavel Durov: Pascal at first, then C and C++.

Pavel Durov： 一开始是 Pascal，后来转向 C 和 C++。

I loved how direct it felt — telling the machine exactly what to do.

我喜欢那种直接操控机器的感觉。

You feel powerful, like talking to pure logic.

那感觉就像在与纯粹的逻辑对话。

Lex Fridman: So even as a kid, you were drawn to creation through logic.

Lex Fridman： 所以从小你就被"通过逻辑创造"的感觉吸引？

Pavel Durov: Yes, logic was my way to freedom.

Pavel Durov： 是的。逻辑是通往自由的路径。

When you can build something from nothing, nobody controls you.

当你能凭空创造出东西时，就没有人能控制你。

And that’s still my philosophy today.

这至今仍是我的人生哲学。

1:54:11 – VK Origins & Engineering

Pavel Durov: When I entered St. Petersburg State University, studying alone felt boring — everything was too easy.

Pavel Durov： 当我进入圣彼得堡国立大学时，仅仅学习让我觉得无聊——一切都太容易了。

So I created a small website for students in my faculty.

所以我为我们学院的学生建立了一个小网站。

It stored digital versions of lectures and exam answers.

网站里有数字化的讲义和历年考试答案。

That was revolutionary at the time — 25 years ago, almost no one did that.

那在当时（25年前）是革命性的，几乎没人这么做。

Soon, I added discussion forums and profiles.

很快，我又加上了论坛和个人资料功能。

Students could post notes, photos, and make friends.

学生们可以上传笔记、照片并交朋友。

It spread beyond my faculty to the entire university, then to others.

它从我的学院扩展到整个大学，接着蔓延到其他学校。

Within a few years, tens of thousands of students were using it.

几年内，这个学生网站已有数万人使用。

Lex Fridman: So you essentially built a social network before social networks.

Lex Fridman： 所以你在社交网络出现之前，就已经造了一个。

Pavel Durov: Yes. It had all the basic features — blogs, photos, messages, friend lists.

Pavel Durov： 是的。它拥有所有社交网络的基本功能——博客、照片、消息、好友列表。

Later, an old classmate who studied in the U.S. told me about Facebook.

后来，一个在美国留学的老同学告诉我有个叫 Facebook 的网站。

He asked, "Are you trying to build a Russian Facebook?"

他说："你这是在做俄罗斯版的 Facebook 吗？"

I said, "What’s Facebook?" and he showed me.

我回答："什么是 Facebook？"于是他给我看。

I realized we already had many of the same features.

我发现我们其实已经有很多相同功能。

But I also learned something important — sometimes you need to remove features to grow.

但我也学到一个重要的道理——有时为了成长，必须删除功能。

Lex Fridman: Simplify to scale.

Lex Fridman： 简化才能扩展。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. Simplicity is power.

Pavel Durov： 没错。简洁即力量。

Users want to understand your product in seconds.

用户希望几秒钟内就能明白产品的用途。

Too many features make it confusing.

功能太多会让人困惑。

So I started VKontakte — VK, meaning "In Touch."

于是我创建了 VKontakte，也就是 VK，意思是"保持联系"。

At first, it was just to stay in touch with my classmates — and meet new people.

最初只是想和大学同学保持联系——顺便认识些新人。

Lex Fridman: Including women?

Lex Fridman： 包括漂亮女生？

Pavel Durov: (laughs) Of course. I was 20.

Pavel Durov：（笑）当然，那年我才二十岁。

I wanted it to be efficient, so I wrote everything from scratch — no third-party libraries.

我希望网站高效，于是从零开始写，完全不用第三方库。

I obsessed over every line of code.

我对每一行代码都痴迷。

My brother Nikolai was in Germany at the time, doing post-doc work at Max Planck.

当时我哥哥 Nikolai 在德国马普研究所做博士后。

I called him and asked, "Where do I start?"

我打电话问他："我该从哪开始？"

He said, "Just build the login module first."

他说："先做一个登录模块。"

"Don’t even build logout — just log in."

"连退出都不用写，先实现登录。"

That advice changed my life.

那个建议改变了我的人生。

Once I saw "Hello, Pavel" appear on the screen after login, I knew what to do next.

当我在登录后看到屏幕上出现"Hello, Pavel"时，我知道该怎么继续了。

Within weeks, I added photo albums, messages, and a wall for posts.

几周内，我加上了相册、私信、留言墙。

I was the only employee for almost a year.

前一年，我是公司唯一的员工。

I did backend, frontend, design, customer support, and marketing.

我负责后台、前端、设计、客服和市场。

I even wrote the announcements myself.

公告也是我亲自写的。

Lex Fridman: That’s incredible. A one-man social network.

Lex Fridman： 太不可思议了——一个人做出整个社交网站。

Pavel Durov: It was pure obsession.

Pavel Durov： 完全是执念。

I’d work 20 hours a day.

我每天工作 20 个小时。

After launch, VK exploded — people loved it.

发布后，VK 迅速爆红——人们非常喜欢。

We soon had millions of users across Russia and Eastern Europe.

很快，我们的用户遍布俄罗斯和东欧。

Lex Fridman: And you built it all on PHP and MySQL?

Lex Fridman： 你是用 PHP 和 MySQL 做的吗？

Pavel Durov: Yes, at first. Then I added Memcached and switched to NGINX for speed.

Pavel Durov： 是的，最初用 PHP + MySQL，后来加上 Memcached，并改用 NGINX 提升速度。

Scaling was hard. One server became ten, then hundreds.

扩展很难。一台服务器变成十台，后来上百台。

Each database had to be split and distributed intelligently.

每个数据库都要拆分并智能分布。

That’s when I begged Nikolai to come back and help me.

那时我求哥哥回来帮我。

DDoS attacks started as VK became popular.

VK 火了之后，DDoS 攻击接踵而来。

Competitors and shady actors tried to take us down.

竞争对手和黑客都想干掉我们。

Every negotiation day with investors, the attacks intensified.

每当和投资人谈判时，攻击就更猛烈。

I spent countless sleepless nights fighting them.

我无数个夜晚没合眼，只为抵御攻击。

Lex Fridman: That was your introduction to real-world adversaries.

Lex Fridman： 那是你第一次接触现实中的"敌人"。

Pavel Durov: Exactly — first hackers, then politics, then geopolitics.

Pavel Durov： 没错——先是黑客，然后是政治，最后是地缘政治。

Lex Fridman: And when Nikolai came back, he rewrote the backend in C and C++?

Lex Fridman： 而当 Nikolai 回来后，他用 C 和 C++ 重写了后端？

Pavel Durov: Yes. He and a friend — both world-class programming champions — rewrote major components like search and ads engines.

Pavel Durov： 是的。他和一位编程竞赛冠军好友一起重写了主要模块，如搜索与广告引擎。

They made it lightning fast.

速度快得惊人。

In 2009, when I visited Silicon Valley, even Facebook engineers asked how VK loaded faster than them.

2009 年我去硅谷时，连 Facebook 工程师都问 VK 为何加载得比他们快。

The secret was efficiency.

秘诀就是高效。

We prioritized speed over everything else.

我们把速度放在一切之上。

Every 50 milliseconds mattered.

每 50 毫秒都重要。

Faster code means fewer servers, lower costs, and better UX.

代码越快，服务器越少，成本越低，用户体验越好。

That’s still how we build Telegram today.

这仍然是我们做 Telegram 的方式。

Lex Fridman: And that’s what makes it special — even on bad networks, Telegram feels instant.

Lex Fridman： 这正是 Telegram 特别之处——即使在糟糕的网络上也能即时响应。

Pavel Durov: Speed is respect for the user’s time.

Pavel Durov： 速度就是对用户时间的尊重。

2:11:24 – Hiring a Great Team

Lex Fridman: It’s interesting — just a tiny inefficiency in code can be multiplied millions of times when you have a billion users.

Lex Fridman： 很有意思——代码中一点点低效，在十亿用户级别下会被放大无数倍。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. And what’s worse, you often don’t even notice it.

Pavel Durov： 没错。更糟的是，你往往察觉不到。

Code doesn’t scream, "I could be faster!"

代码不会大喊："我还能更快！"

So it takes a certain kind of discipline — and a certain kind of person — to care enough to find and fix it.

所以你需要有纪律的人，有那种会在意每毫秒、愿意找出问题并改进的人。

Lex Fridman: So when you hire, you’re really looking for that — someone who has this craftsman mentality.

Lex Fridman： 所以在招聘时，你真正寻找的是具备工匠精神的人。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. And sometimes firing someone increases productivity.

Pavel Durov： 没错。有时解雇一个人反而能提升生产力。

For example, if you have two Android engineers struggling to meet deadlines, you might think you need a third.

举个例子，如果你有两个 Android 工程师总是完不成任务，你可能会想再招一个。

But sometimes, firing one solves the problem.

但有时，解雇其中一个就能解决问题。

The "B player" drags everyone down.

"B 级选手"会拖垮整个团队。

Lex Fridman: Steve Jobs said something similar — A players hire A players, B players hire C players.

Lex Fridman： Steve Jobs 也说过类似的话——A 级选手会招 A 级选手，B 级选手只会招 C 级选手。

Pavel Durov: Yes, and B players demotivate A players.

Pavel Durov： 是的，而 B 级选手会让 A 级选手失去动力。

When a great engineer sees a teammate asking wrong questions or lagging behind, it’s frustrating.

当优秀工程师看到队友总是问错问题、拖后腿时，会感到沮丧。

It kills creativity and morale.

这会扼杀创造力和士气。

So removing one wrong person can make the whole team happier and faster.

所以，去掉一个不合适的人，整个团队会更高效、更快乐。

Lex Fridman: And focus is key. Many people can’t concentrate deeply for long periods.

Lex Fridman： 而专注力是关键。很多人无法长时间深度专注。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. Most failures come from distraction, not lack of intelligence.

Pavel Durov： 没错。大多数失败不是因为智商不够，而是因为分心太多。

I prefer to hire people who can work intensely, alone, for long stretches of time.

我喜欢雇那些能长时间独立、高强度工作的工程师。

They should take responsibility for the entire module — end to end.

他们应该对整个模块全权负责，从头到尾。

Lex Fridman: You often use programming contests to recruit. Why?

Lex Fridman： 你经常通过编程竞赛招聘，这是为什么？

Pavel Durov: Because competition reveals the best.

Pavel Durov： 因为竞争能筛选出最优秀的人。

We organize coding contests — public, open, with real challenges.

我们举办公开的编程竞赛，题目都是真实的工程挑战。

We then hire the consistent winners.

我们随后会雇用那些持续获胜的人。

Some of them have been competing since they were teenagers.

有些人从十几岁就开始参加比赛。

After a few years, you can see who’s truly great — consistent performance, multiple languages, clean code.

几年后，你能看出谁是真正的高手——稳定发挥，多语言能力，代码整洁。

Lex Fridman: So it’s meritocracy in its purest form.

Lex Fridman： 这是一种最纯粹的精英制度。

Pavel Durov: Yes. No politics, no degrees, no fancy resumes — just skill.

Pavel Durov： 是的。没有政治，没有学历门槛，没有漂亮简历——只有实力。

Sometimes, we find 18-year-olds who outperform veterans.

有时我们找到的18岁年轻人，比老手还强。

Lex Fridman: And once they join Telegram, how do you keep them motivated?

Lex Fridman： 那他们加入 Telegram 后，你如何保持他们的动力？

Pavel Durov: We give them freedom and responsibility.

Pavel Durov： 我们给他们自由和责任。

There’s no micromanagement.

没有微观管理。

If you hire great people, you don’t need to tell them what to do — just the goal.

如果你雇的是优秀的人，你只需告诉他们目标。

They’ll figure out the rest.

他们会自己解决剩下的事。

Lex Fridman: That’s rare — most companies over-manage.

Lex Fridman： 这很少见——大多数公司管理太多。

Pavel Durov: True. But Telegram’s small core team moves faster than 10,000-person corporations.

Pavel Durov： 的确如此。但 Telegram 的核心小团队，比上万人的大公司行动还快。

Because everyone we hire is elite — A players only.

因为我们只雇用精英——纯 A 级团队。

That’s why we can launch major new features every month.

所以我们每个月都能推出重要新功能。

Lex Fridman: That’s remarkable — a billion-user app, still innovating like a startup.

Lex Fridman： 真了不起——十亿用户的应用，仍然像创业公司一样创新。

Pavel Durov: That’s the beauty of building with the right people.

Pavel Durov： 这就是"选对人"的魅力所在。

2:20:40 – Telegram Engineering & Design

Lex Fridman: Because you’re so selective, Telegram hires slowly — everyone must truly earn their place.

Lex Fridman： 因为你要求严格，Telegram 的招聘很慢——每个人都必须靠实力赢得席位。

I sat in on one of your design meetings — it was fascinating.

我曾参加过你们的一次设计会议——非常有趣。

People debate small UI details as if they were life and death decisions.

你们团队在讨论界面细节时，就像在做生死决定。

And yet, this intensity produces magic.

但这种专注产生了奇迹。

Pavel Durov: Yes. The process is fast but deliberate — idea, prototype, feature.

Pavel Durov： 是的。我们节奏很快，但每一步都很有意识：构思、原型、上线。

That’s how Telegram keeps leading in features — seven years ahead on things like auto-delete, message editing, and replies.

这就是 Telegram 为什么能在功能上领先，比如自动删除、消息编辑和回复——比同行早了七年。

Lex Fridman: Even small design details like message replies — the vertical line, the snippet, the highlight — these are strokes of genius.

Lex Fridman： 甚至像消息回复这种小设计——左侧竖线、引用片段、点击高亮——都堪称神来之笔。

Pavel Durov: Funny story — when other messengers copied it, they even copied the same time intervals and colors.

Pavel Durov： 有趣的是——后来其他应用抄袭时，连时间间隔和颜色都一模一样。

Lex Fridman: That shows how much you’ve set the standard.

Lex Fridman： 这说明你们设立了行业标准。

Pavel Durov: We try to combine art and efficiency.

Pavel Durov： 我们努力让艺术与效率结合。

For example, our default chat background uses a four-color gradient that slowly shifts.

比如，Telegram 的默认聊天背景使用四种颜色渐变，且会缓慢变换。

Most people don’t notice it consciously, but they feelit subconsciously.

大多数人不会有意识地注意到，但会在潜意识中感受到它的舒适。

It adds warmth without distraction.

它让界面温润却不分心。

Lex Fridman: It’s true — the gradient feels alive.

Lex Fridman： 的确如此——那种渐变让人感觉界面"有生命"。

Pavel Durov: The hardest part was making it beautiful andfast on old phones.

Pavel Durov： 最难的是让它既漂亮又能在老手机上流畅运行。

We use vector graphics and procedural generation to keep it smooth.

我们采用矢量图形与程序化生成，保证平滑。

Every small animation is tuned for performance.

每一个小动画都经过性能优化。

When you send a message, the input box morphs into a bubble — it’s not just design; it’s physics.

当你发送消息时，输入框变成气泡——这不仅是设计，而是"物理表演"。

We recalculate each frame so that motion feels organic.

我们计算每一帧，让动效更自然。

Lex Fridman: And yet, it’s never flashy — it’s calm, pleasant, minimal.

Lex Fridman： 但这些动效从不花哨——始终沉稳、愉悦、极简。

Pavel Durov: Because design should disappear.

Pavel Durov： 因为好的设计应该"隐形"。

It should serve communication, not overshadow it.

它应该服务于交流，而不是喧宾夺主。

Lex Fridman: I love the message deletion effect — the "Thanos snap."

Lex Fridman： 我喜欢消息删除的特效——像"灭霸打响指"那样。

Pavel Durov: (laughs) That one was a nightmare to code.

Pavel Durov：（笑）那是噩梦级的开发任务。

Tens of thousands of particles dissolve like dust — in sync with UI shifts.

上万颗粒像尘埃般消散，还得与界面联动。

On Android, it was particularly tricky.

在 Android 上尤其棘手。

We had to ensure that messages above and below reflow smoothly as the deleted one fades.

我们必须确保被删除消息的上下文本在动画中平滑衔接。

Lex Fridman: It’s beautiful — feels almost poetic.

Lex Fridman： 那种动画太美了，甚至带着诗意。

Pavel Durov: That’s the goal. Even tiny interactions can bring joy.

Pavel Durov： 这就是目标。哪怕微小的操作，也能带来愉悦。

If we can make people 0.001% happier each day, it’s worth it.

如果我们能让人们每天多快乐 0.001%，就值得。

Lex Fridman: Steve Jobs and Jony Ive used to say the same — people feelthe love designers put into their work.

Lex Fridman： Steve Jobs 和 Jony Ive 也说过——人们能感受到设计师倾注的爱。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. People love when others care.

Pavel Durov： 没错。人会因为被"用心对待"而喜欢某个产品。

Lex Fridman: And that extends to the art side — your stickers, animated emojis, and now the vector-based GIFs.

Lex Fridman： 这份"用心"也体现在艺术层面——你们的贴纸、动表情、乃至矢量 GIF。

Pavel Durov: Stickers were another revolution — we launched them three years and eight months before WhatsApp.

Pavel Durov： 贴纸是另一场革命——我们比 WhatsApp 早三年八个月推出。

Ours were vector-based animations, not heavy GIFs.

我们用矢量动画，而不是笨重的 GIF。

Each sticker is just a few kilobytes but runs at 60 frames per second.

每个贴纸仅几 KB，却能以每秒 60 帧流畅播放。

It was insanely difficult to make.

实现这一点极其困难。

We had to recruit artists who could think like engineers.

我们必须找既懂艺术又懂工程的创作者。

Lex Fridman: That’s rare — a true blend of art and math.

Lex Fridman： 这很罕见——艺术与数学的结合。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. True quality exists at that intersection.

Pavel Durov： 没错。真正的品质诞生于两者交汇处。

Then came animated emojis — and now Telegram Gifts, our collectible blockchain-based art.

接着是动表情，而现在是 Telegram Gifts——基于区块链的可收藏数字艺术。

People can gift them, trade them, and display them on their profile.

用户可以赠送、交易、并在个人主页展示这些礼物。

They’re fun andmeaningful.

它们既有趣又有意义。

Lex Fridman: Telegram feels like where art meets engineering — joy meets precision.

Lex Fridman： Telegram 就像艺术与工程的交汇点——快乐与精确并存。

Pavel Durov: That’s exactly how we see it.

Pavel Durov： 这正是我们对 Telegram 的定义。

2:39:42 – Encryption

Lex Fridman: Another feature, on the more serious side, is end-to-end encryption. You led the industry in that. It was launched one year and three months ahead. Can you speak to why you decided to add end-to-end encryption and how you developed the encryption algorithm in the beginning? What was your thinking behind that?

Lex Fridman： 另一个严肃的功能是端到端加密。你在这方面引领了整个行业，比别人早推出一年三个月。能谈谈你为什么决定加入端到端加密，以及最初如何设计加密算法吗？你的思考逻辑是什么？

Pavel Durov: In 2013, when we were launching Telegram, we were aware of the serious issue with privacy that Edward Snowden made very clear.

Pavel Durov： 2013 年我们创建 Telegram 时，就意识到隐私是一个严重问题，而 Edward Snowden 已经让全世界看清了这一点。

We thought, yes, we’re designing this product in a way that is already extremely secure, but we want to make sure that not even we can access user messages.

我们认为，虽然我们的设计已经非常安全，但我们希望确保连我们自己都无法访问用户消息。

We understood very clearly that a bunch of people who were born in Russia don’t necessarily inspire trust.

我们非常清楚——来自俄罗斯的一群人，不一定能让全球用户放心。

That’s why we made Telegram open source — all our apps have been available on GitHub since 2013.

这就是我们将 Telegram 开源的原因——自 2013 年起，我们的所有客户端都在 GitHub 上公开。

And then we added end-to-end encryption in our Secret Chats, which WhatsApp copied a few years later.

随后我们在"秘密聊天"中引入了端到端加密，而 WhatsApp 在几年后才照搬这个功能。

We launched it one year and three months before they even started testing it.

在他们开始测试之前，我们就已经提前一年三个月发布了。

They rolled this out in 2016, three years after us, and the only reason I think the rest of the industry had to do it is because we set the standard.

他们到 2016 年才推出，比我们晚了三年。我认为整个行业之所以被迫跟进，是因为我们设立了新标准。

Pavel Durov: It was incredibly important back then. But at the same time, we realized certain limitations of end-to-end encryption.

Pavel Durov： 在当时这非常重要，但我们也意识到端到端加密有一些限制。

Within that design, you can’t support very large chat communities with persistent histories.

在这种架构下，无法支持有持续聊天记录的超大群组。

You can’t support huge one-to-many channels.

也无法支持数十万人的广播频道。

You’d have issues with bots, automation, and multi-device sync.

同时还会在机器人、自动化、多设备同步上遇到难题。

People would end up losing some of their shared documents.

用户甚至可能丢失文件。

So we developed a hybrid model — users can choose their preferred level of encryption depending on use case.

因此我们开发了混合模式——让用户根据用途自行选择加密级别。

Lex Fridman: That’s why you chose to go opt-in for end-to-end encryption.

Lex Fridman： 这就是你们选择"自愿启用"端到端加密的原因。

The trade-off is between absolute privacy and usability.

这种设计在"极致隐私"和"可用性"之间取得平衡。

For people who really care about specific messages, there’s Secret Chats. For teams, normal encrypted chats are more practical.

对极度注重隐私的用户，有"秘密聊天"；而团队协作中，普通加密聊天更实用。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Secret Chats are not just end-to-end encrypted — they also disable forwarding, screenshots, and backups.

Pavel Durov： 是的。"秘密聊天"不仅端到端加密，还禁止转发、截图和云备份。

Those limitations are both a feature and a bug.

这些限制既是特性也是代价。

When we tried to use them internally for team work, it was impossible — you can’t share files easily.

我们自己尝试用它来办公时，发现根本不行——文件分享都很困难。

So, if you want total privacy, use Secret Chats. If you want collaboration, use regular Telegram.

因此，如果你要绝对隐私，就用"秘密聊天"；如果你要协作，就用普通聊天。

Lex Fridman: You personally believe that Secret Chats are the most secure form of communication today?

Lex Fridman： 你认为"秘密聊天"是当今最安全的通讯方式？

Pavel Durov: Yes. I truly believe that. Nothing else matches it in balance of cryptographic rigor and usability.

Pavel Durov： 是的，我真这么认为。没有任何其他应用能在加密强度和使用体验上达到这种平衡。

2:44:39 – Open Source

Lex Fridman: We should say that there’s a lot of other aspects to this that are important. For example, Telegram is the only app that has open-source reproducible builds for both Android and iOS. Why is this important?

Lex Fridman： 我们应该提到，这里面还有许多重要的方面。例如，Telegram 是唯一在 Android 和 iOS 上都支持"可复现编译"的开源应用。这为什么重要？

Pavel Durov: You need reproducible builds to verify that the app really does what it claims — that it encrypts data exactly as described.

Pavel Durov： 你需要"可复现编译"，才能验证应用是否真的如它所宣称的那样工作——确实按描述方式加密数据。

For that, your app must be open source so independent researchers can inspect it.

要做到这一点，应用必须开源，让独立研究人员能检查代码。

Telegram has been open source since 2013.

Telegram 自 2013 年起就已完全开源。

Apps like WhatsApp have never been open source, so you don’t really know what they’re doing.

像 WhatsApp 这样的应用从未开源，因此外界根本不知道它们在做什么。

What’s crucial, though, is ensuring that the app users download from the App Store exactly matches the public source code.

但关键是确保用户从 App Store 下载的应用，与 GitHub 上公开的源代码完全一致。

That’s what reproducible builds enable.

这正是"可复现编译"的意义所在。

Lex Fridman: And Telegram is the only popular messaging app that offers this.

Lex Fridman： 而 Telegram 是唯一实现这一点的主流通讯软件。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Both on Android and iOS, anyone can verify the build.

Pavel Durov： 是的。无论 Android 还是 iOS，任何人都能验证二进制是否与源码一致。

It’s about trust and transparency.

这关乎信任与透明度。

When I say that Secret Chats are the most secure way of communicating, I mean it — because it’s verifiable.

当我说"秘密聊天"是最安全的通信方式时，我是认真的——因为它可以被验证。

Lex Fridman: And none of your major competitors do this — not WhatsApp, not Signal, not iMessage.

Lex Fridman： 而你的主要竞争者没有一个做到这一点——无论是 WhatsApp、Signal 还是 iMessage。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. And that’s worrying.

Pavel Durov： 没错，这其实令人担忧。

None of them provide verifiable builds.

它们都无法验证二进制与源码的一致性。

And we’ve gone further — our entire backend stack is written internally from scratch.

而我们更进一步——Telegram 的整个后端栈都是从零自主开发。

Not just the encryption — the servers, the databases, even our programming language for APIs.

不仅是加密算法，连服务器、数据库，甚至后端 API 的编程语言都是我们自己写的。

Lex Fridman: That’s an enormous engineering challenge.

Lex Fridman： 这是一项巨大的工程挑战。

Pavel Durov: It is. But it makes the system far more secure.

Pavel Durov： 是的，但这样系统安全性高得多。

Snowden’s revelations showed that even widely used open-source libraries can be compromised.

Snowden 的披露证明，即使是广泛使用的开源库也可能被植入后门。

So we minimize dependencies, and we code everything we can ourselves.

因此我们尽量减少依赖，能自己写的都自己写。

It’s hard — but it’s the only way to know exactly what your code does.

这很难——但这是唯一能确保你完全了解代码行为的方法。

Lex Fridman: Most companies rely heavily on open-source libraries. It’s almost impossible to avoid.

Lex Fridman： 大多数公司都严重依赖开源库，几乎不可能完全避免。

Pavel Durov: True. We still use Linux on our servers — that’s unavoidable.

Pavel Durov： 的确如此。我们的服务器仍然运行 Linux——这是无法避免的。

But beyond that, Telegram is far more self-reliant than any other app I know.

但除此之外，Telegram 比我所知的任何其他应用都更加自给自足。

We build almost everything ourselves.

我们几乎所有核心组件都自主构建。

That’s why our attack surface is so small — and our performance is so high.

这也是我们攻击面小、性能高的原因。

2:49:26 – Edward Snowden

Lex Fridman: You mentioned Edward Snowden. A long time ago you wanted to work together with him — perhaps to share expertise, to understand the full realm of what it takes to achieve cybersecurity. What do you make of his case? What lessons do you learn from what he has uncovered, and what impact has his work had on the world, do you think?

Lex Fridman： 你提到过 Edward Snowden。很久以前你想和他合作——也许是为了交流专业知识，了解实现网络安全所需的全部努力。你怎么看待他的事件？从他揭露的事情中，你学到了什么？你认为他的工作对世界产生了什么影响？

Pavel Durov: Well, the main lesson is that not everything is what it seems.

Pavel Durov： 主要的教训是——世界并非表面看起来那样。

You discover that many people you thought were independent cryptography experts were in fact connected to intelligence agencies like the NSA.

你会发现，许多你原以为是独立的密码学专家的人，其实都与 NSA 等情报机构有关系。

Some even promoted flawed encryption standards.

有些人甚至主动推动存在漏洞的加密标准。

And you realize that governments, which are supposed to have limits on surveillance, often don’t see themselves as bound by those limits.

你会意识到，那些本应受到限制的政府，其实并不认为自己受到约束。

That was shocking — but valuable for the world to understand.

这让人震惊——但对世界来说，这是一次宝贵的觉醒。

Pavel Durov: It also shows that humans rarely find balance.

Pavel Durov： 这件事还说明，人类很少能找到平衡。

After 9/11, governments reacted — but they overreacted.

9·11 事件后，政府做出了反应——但反应过度。

In expanding their powers, they eroded basic rights, especially privacy.

在扩张权力的同时，他们侵蚀了基本权利，尤其是隐私权。

The cure became worse than the disease.

治疗手段比疾病本身更糟糕。

Lex Fridman: And you still think Snowden’s actions were justified?

Lex Fridman： 你仍然认为 Snowden 的行为是正当的吗？

Pavel Durov: I think it was incredibly brave.

Pavel Durov： 我认为那是极度勇敢的行为。

He sacrificed his life as he knew it — for truth.

他牺牲了自己原本的生活，只为了让真相被看见。

I never got to work with him personally, though we sometimes communicate.

我没能真正和他共事，虽然我们偶尔联系。

But I respect him deeply.

但我对他怀有深深的敬意。

What he did is laudable — it exposed how fragile digital freedom really is.

他所做的值得敬佩——它揭示了数字自由的脆弱本质。

I hope one day we meet.

我希望有一天能亲自见到他。

2:51:58 – Intelligence Agencies

Lex Fridman: You yourself have faced the full force of various governments and intelligence agencies. Is there any intelligence agency you’re afraid of? Any government you’re afraid of?

Lex Fridman： 你自己也曾面对多个政府和情报机构的全面压力。有没有哪个情报机构是你害怕的？有没有哪个政府让你畏惧？

Pavel Durov: I think they should be equally feared — or equally not feared.

Pavel Durov： 我认为，他们都该被"同等地害怕"，或者说"同等地不必害怕"。

It’s not that one agency can kill you and another can’t.

并不是说某个机构能杀你，另一个就不能。

Lex Fridman: So they all can kill you?

Lex Fridman： 所以他们都能杀你？

Pavel Durov: I guess they all can kill me one way or another. But the question is whether I’m afraid of death.

Pavel Durov： 我想他们确实都能以某种方式杀我，但关键在于——我怕不怕死。

Lex Fridman: That goes back to the start of our conversation — you seem fearless in the face of pressure.

Lex Fridman： 这又回到了我们对话的开头——你似乎在巨大压力下仍无所畏惧。

Pavel Durov: That would be a bold statement. But yes, I’ve proven to be quite stress-resilient.

Pavel Durov： 这话听起来有点大胆，但没错，我确实在高压下相当有韧性。

It’s not that you never feel fear — you just learn to overcome it.

不是你从不害怕，而是你学会了克服恐惧。

At this point, I don’t think there’s anything left that could change who I am.

到了现在，我想已经没有什么能改变我是谁。

2:53:10 – Iran and Russia Government Pressure

Lex Fridman: You went through a lot from 2011 to 2014 — government pressure that you refused to give in to, which led you to create Telegram and let go of VK. Then in 2018, Russia and Iran decided to ban Telegram. Can you take me through that story?

Lex Fridman： 从 2011 年到 2014 年，你经历了巨大的政府压力，但你拒绝屈服，这促使你放弃 VK 并创建了 Telegram。而在 2018 年，俄罗斯和伊朗又决定封禁 Telegram。能讲讲那一段经历吗？

Pavel Durov: In 2018, Telegram started becoming really popular. We had around 200 million users then.

Pavel Durov： 2018 年时，Telegram 已经开始非常流行。当时我们大约有两亿用户。

It was increasingly popular in countries like Iran and Russia — places where people sometimes have something to hide from the government.

在伊朗和俄罗斯等国家尤其受欢迎——人们常常有需要避开政府视线的理由。

In Iran, Telegram was used to organize protests against the government.

在伊朗，民众用 Telegram 组织反政府抗议。

They had massive channels that helped coordinate those movements.

有巨大的频道用于协调这些行动。

Eventually the government couldn’t keep up and decided to ban Telegram.

最终政府无力应对，决定全面封禁 Telegram。

But people kept using it through VPNs — the ban didn’t really work.

但人们继续通过 VPN 使用 Telegram——封禁几乎没效果。

The government then invested heavily in developing their own "national messenger."

政府接着投入大量资源，开发所谓的"国家级即时通讯应用"。

They had several teams competing for that title — but all of them failed.

有几个团队竞相开发，但都失败了。

People still preferred Telegram.

人们仍然更喜欢用 Telegram。

Ironically, Iran banned Telegram but didn’t ban WhatsApp.

讽刺的是，伊朗封禁了 Telegram，却没有封 WhatsApp。

Lex Fridman: WhatsApp was allowed?

Lex Fridman： WhatsApp 还被允许？

Pavel Durov: Yes — or at least it was unbanned shortly after.

Pavel Durov： 是的——或者说很快就被"解封"了。

Around the same time, late 2017, Russia demanded Telegram hand over encryption keys.

差不多同一时间，在 2017 年底，俄罗斯要求 Telegram 交出加密密钥。

They believed such "master keys" existed — something that could decrypt all messages.

他们认为存在这样的"万能钥匙"，可以解密所有用户的消息。

We told them it was impossible.

我们告诉他们，这是不可能的。

So we said, "If you have to ban us, ban us."

所以我们说："如果你们要封禁，就封吧。"

And that’s what they did in spring 2018.

然后他们真的在 2018 年春天这么做了。

But it was quite fun — because we were ready.

但这其实挺有趣——因为我们早就准备好了。

We built a system to rotate IP addresses automatically, every time the censors blocked us.

我们开发了一个系统，每当审查机构封锁 IP，我们就自动切换新的 IP。

Millions of IPs were being cycled.

我们循环使用了数百万个 IP 地址。

We even launched a movement called "Digital Resistance."

我们甚至发起了一场名为"数字抵抗"的运动。

System administrators and engineers all over the world — inside and outside Russia — volunteered their proxy servers.

全球的系统管理员和工程师——包括在俄罗斯内部的——都志愿提供代理服务器。

Telegram would rely on those to bypass censorship.

Telegram 就依靠这些代理服务器绕过封锁。

It became a decentralized movement for digital freedom.

它成为一场去中心化的数字自由运动。

2:56:19 – Apple

Pavel Durov: We ended up spending millions of dollars on that resistance infrastructure.

Pavel Durov： 我们最终在这场抵抗体系上花费了数百万美元。

The censors in Russia went crazy — they started blocking huge IP subnets.

俄罗斯的审查机构彻底失控——开始封锁成片的 IP 网段。

They accidentally disrupted parts of their own country’s internet infrastructure.

结果他们意外地破坏了本国部分互联网基础设施。

People couldn’t pay for groceries or access banks because those IPs were used by other services.

人们甚至无法在超市付款或访问银行，因为那些 IP 被其他服务共用。

Even Russian media and social networks got affected.

连俄罗斯本地的社交网络和媒体也遭殃。

So they had to start being more selective in what they blocked.

所以他们不得不更谨慎地封锁。

Pavel Durov: But the biggest resistance we faced at the time was actually from Apple.

Pavel Durov： 但那段时间我们遭遇的最大阻力，其实来自苹果公司。

Apple refused to allow Telegram updates in the App Store for weeks.

苹果连续数周拒绝让 Telegram 在 App Store 推出更新。

They told us we had to reach an agreement with the Russian government first.

他们说我们必须先与俄罗斯政府达成协议。

We told them that’s not possible.

我们告诉他们，那不可能。

Then Apple said: "We’ll allow updates worldwide — except in Russia."

接着苹果说："我们可以让 Telegram 在全球更新，但俄罗斯除外。"

We refused that too.

我们也拒绝了。

Things got really bad — Telegram started to fall apart because a new iOS version broke compatibility.

情况越来越糟——因为新版 iOS 导致 Telegram 无法正常运行。

People all over the world — who had nothing to do with Russia — started to suffer.

全球其他地区的用户（与俄罗斯毫无关系）也开始遇到问题。

I almost lost hope.

我几乎失去了希望。

I told my team: "If by 6 p.m. today Apple doesn’t approve our update, we’ll pull Telegram from the Russian App Store and move on."

我对团队说："如果今天下午 6 点前苹果仍不同意，我们就撤出俄罗斯区的 App Store，继续前进。"

It was a Friday.

那天是星期五。

Lex Fridman: That would mean cutting off millions of users in Russia — including protesters and independent voices.

Lex Fridman： 那就意味着要切断俄罗斯数百万用户——包括抗议者和独立声音的连接。

Pavel Durov: Yes. But magically, 15 minutes before the deadline, Apple reached out and said: "It’s approved."

Pavel Durov： 没错。但神奇的是，在截止时间前 15 分钟，苹果联系了我们，说："已批准。"

So we pushed the update — and Telegram survived.

我们立刻发布更新——Telegram 活下来了。

We continued our hide-and-seek game with the censors.

我们继续与审查机构玩"捉迷藏"。

Pavel Durov: In Iran, we couldn’t afford to maintain so many proxy IPs — and sanctions made it tricky.

Pavel Durov： 在伊朗，我们没法维持那么多代理 IP，再加上制裁问题，很棘手。

So we did something different — we created an economic incentive system.

所以我们想出了另一种方法——建立经济激励机制。

Any engineer could host a proxy server for Telegram.

任何工程师都可以为 Telegram 搭建代理服务器。

They could share its address with users in Iran.

然后把地址分发给伊朗用户。

Telegram would show a pinned message or small ad from that proxy owner — so they earned money.

Telegram 会展示代理主人的置顶消息或广告——这样他们就能赚钱。

It created a market — Iranians solved their own problem.

于是形成了一个市场——伊朗人自己解决了访问问题。

Telegram kept tens of millions of users active in Iran.

Telegram 在伊朗依然保持了数千万活跃用户。

I think to this day, Telegram is still officially banned in Iran, but around 50 million people still use it.

我想直到今天，Telegram 在伊朗仍被官方封禁，但大约有五千万用户依旧在用。

Lex Fridman: So people always find a way around.

Lex Fridman： 所以人们总能找到绕过封锁的方法。

Pavel Durov: Yes — people find a way.

Pavel Durov： 是的，人们总会找到出路。

3:03:16 – Poisoning

Lex Fridman: That’s ingenious. I have to ask you about something I’ve never heard you talk about — there was an assassination attempt on you in 2018 using what appeared to be poisoning.

Lex Fridman： 那真是高明。我必须问你一件你从未公开谈论过的事——2018 年，有一次针对你的暗杀企图，似乎是下毒。

I think it shows how serious this fight for freedom of speech really is. Would you tell me that story?

我觉得这件事显示出你为言论自由而战的代价有多严重。你能讲讲这段经历吗？

Pavel Durov: I never talked about it publicly because I didn’t want to scare people — especially my team.

Pavel Durov： 我从没公开说过，因为我不想吓到别人——尤其是我的团队。

It was spring 2018. We were fundraising for TON, meeting with investors, while at the same time being banned by multiple countries.

那是 2018 年春天。当时我们在为 TON 区块链项目融资，同时还被多个国家封禁。

It wasn’t the best moment to announce anything about my personal health.

所以那不是适合谈论我个人健康的时机。

But that night — it’s something I’ll never forget.

但那晚的事，我永远不会忘。

I had just returned home and noticed something strange left by my neighbor near my door.

我刚回到家，注意到邻居在门口留了些奇怪的东西。

An hour later, while in bed, I started to feel terrible pain all over my body.

一小时后，我躺在床上，开始全身剧痛。

I tried to get up, but as I walked toward the bathroom, my body began shutting down — eyesight, hearing, even breathing.

我试图起身走向浴室，但身体机能开始一点点关闭——视力、听力，甚至呼吸。

Every nerve felt like it was on fire.

每一根神经都像在燃烧。

My heart, stomach, blood vessels — all in pain.

心脏、胃、血管——全都在剧痛。

It’s difficult to describe, but I remember thinking: "This is it."

很难形容那种感觉，但我当时心想："就到这里吧。"

Lex Fridman: You thought you were going to die.

Lex Fridman： 你以为自己要死了。

Pavel Durov: Yes. I thought, "I’ve had a good life. I’ve done a few things that mattered."

Pavel Durov： 是的。我心想，"我这辈子过得不错，也做成过一些事。"

Then I collapsed on the floor — I don’t even remember falling.

然后我就倒在地上——甚至不记得倒下的过程。

When I woke up the next day, I was lying on the floor — alive, but extremely weak.

第二天醒来时，我还活着，躺在地上，虚弱得动不了。

I looked at my arms — all my blood vessels were ruptured under the skin.

我低头看胳膊，皮下的血管全都爆裂了。

I couldn’t walk for two weeks.

我有整整两周都无法行走。

I decided not to tell my team — I didn’t want to cause panic.

我决定不告诉团队——不想让他们惊慌。

But it was tough. That was tough.

但那段时间真的很难熬。

Lex Fridman: Did that make you afraid — of governments, intelligence agencies, all those forces?

Lex Fridman： 那让你害怕吗？害怕那些政府、情报机构、黑暗力量？

It’s like you started building a social app, and suddenly you’re in a geopolitical war zone.

你最初只是想做个社交应用，结果却置身地缘政治的战场。

Pavel Durov: Strangely, no. It made me feel more free.

Pavel Durov： 奇怪的是，并没有。反而让我更自由。

It wasn’t the first time I thought I would die.

这不是我第一次以为自己要死。

After you survive something like that, you feel you’re living on borrowed time — every day is a gift.

经历过这种事后，你会觉得自己活在"额外赠送的时间"里——每一天都是礼物。

Lex Fridman: A bonus life.

Lex Fridman： 额外的人生。

Pavel Durov: Yes.

Pavel Durov： 没错。

Lex Fridman: And the first time you felt that way — was that back in 2011, when the Russian government started pressuring you over VK?

Lex Fridman： 而你第一次有这种感觉，是不是在 2011 年俄罗斯政府开始逼迫你交出 VK 的时候？

Pavel Durov: Yes. In December 2011, during the Moscow protests.

Pavel Durov： 是的，2011 年 12 月，莫斯科爆发大规模抗议。

People didn’t trust the election results for the parliament.

人们不相信议会选举结果。

I was still running VK. The government demanded that I take down opposition groups, including Navalny’s.

当时我还在运营 VK，政府要求我删除反对派群组，包括纳瓦尔尼的组织。

I refused publicly — said people have the right to assemble.

我公开拒绝——说人们有集会的权利。

I even mocked the prosecutor’s order online — posting it next to a photo of a dog in a hoodie with its tongue out.

我还在网上嘲讽检察官的文件，把它贴在一张穿连帽衫吐舌头的狗的照片旁边。

That went viral — but then armed police came to my apartment.

那张图火了——但随即，全副武装的警察出现在我家门口。

I realized this could be it.

我意识到：这可能是终点。

I asked myself, "Did I make the right choice?" And I said, "Yes."

我问自己："我做对了吗？" 答案是："对的。"

Then I asked, "What’s next? They’ll probably arrest me."

然后我又想："那接下来呢？他们可能要逮捕我。"

I decided — if they do, I’ll starve myself to death.

我决定——如果被抓，我就绝食至死。

Some men are ready to die for their principles.

有些男人愿意为自己的信念而死。

I guess I’m one of them.

我想我是其中之一。

That was also when I realized: there’s no secure way to communicate.

那时我也意识到：根本没有安全的通讯方式。

WhatsApp had zero encryption — all messages were plain text.

WhatsApp 完全没有加密——所有消息都是明文。

I told myself: if I survive this, I’ll build a secure messenger.

我告诉自己：如果能活下来，我要做一个安全的通讯工具。

That’s how Telegram started.

这就是 Telegram 的起点。

Eventually I was summoned, questioned, but released.

最终我被传唤、问话，但被放了。

Still, it was clear: my days in Russia were numbered.

但很明显——我在俄罗斯的日子到头了。

I packed my backpack, moved to a hotel, and began designing Telegram.

我背上背包，搬进酒店，开始设计 Telegram。

3:35:31 – Money

Lex Fridman: I have to ask you about Telegram’s business side. You own 100% of it, right?

Lex Fridman： 我想问一下 Telegram 的商业运作部分。你现在仍然拥有它 100% 的股份，对吧？

Pavel Durov: Yes. I’ve never sold a single share.

Pavel Durov： 是的。我从未卖出过任何股份。

Lex Fridman: And as far as I know, you invested hundreds of millions of your own money into it. You even take a salary of… what, one dollar?

Lex Fridman： 据我所知，你投入了上亿美元的自有资金在 Telegram 里。你的工资好像是……一美元？

Pavel Durov: One dirham — that’s one third of a dollar.

Pavel Durov： 一迪拉姆——大约三分之一美元。

Lex Fridman: (laughs) And 2024 was the first year Telegram became profitable?

Lex Fridman： （笑）而 2024 年是 Telegram 第一次实现盈利？

Pavel Durov: Correct. And the interesting part is — we did it without exploiting user data.

Pavel Durov： 没错。最有趣的是——我们并没有通过剥削用户数据来实现盈利。

Lex Fridman: You’re leaving a lot of money on the table by not running targeted ads, like Facebook or TikTok.

Lex Fridman： 不像 Facebook 或 TikTok 那样做定向广告，你其实放弃了大量潜在收入。

Pavel Durov: True. We only show contextual ads in public channels — based on the channel’s topic, not personal data.

Pavel Durov： 确实。我们只在公开频道展示"基于话题"的广告，而不是"基于个人数据"的。

Lex Fridman: And you also refuse to add a "news feed," the most addictive part of social media.

Lex Fridman： 你还拒绝引入"信息流"那种让人上瘾的功能。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Those feeds exploit users’ attention and emotions — that’s not the product I want to build.

Pavel Durov： 是的。那种功能是在剥削用户的注意力和情绪——我不想做那样的产品。

Lex Fridman: So how did you manage to make Telegram profitable, then?

Lex Fridman： 那么你是怎么让 Telegram 实现盈利的？

Pavel Durov: We had to innovate — to find ethical ways to sustain growth.

Pavel Durov： 我们必须创新——找到既能维持增长又符合道德的盈利方式。

Money was never the goal for me.

对我来说，赚钱从来不是目标。

When I sold VK shares under pressure, I reinvested almost everything into Telegram.

当年我被迫卖掉 VK 的股份后，几乎把全部资金都投入了 Telegram。

I’ve never taken more money out than I’ve put in.

我从未从 Telegram 提取比投入更多的资金。

Lex Fridman: So what’s the main source of revenue now?

Lex Fridman： 那么现在主要的收入来源是什么？

Pavel Durov: Telegram Premium — we launched it in 2022.

Pavel Durov： Telegram Premium——我们在 2022 年推出的订阅服务。

It offers extra tools for professionals and power users — but all basic features remain free.

它为专业用户提供更多工具，但所有基础功能仍然免费。

It was unprecedented for a messenger app at the time.

在当时，这对即时通讯应用来说是前所未有的。

Now we have over 15 million paying subscribers.

目前我们有超过 1500 万付费订阅者。

That’s over half a billion dollars in recurring yearly revenue.

这每年带来超过 5 亿美元的持续收入。

Lex Fridman: That’s huge.

Lex Fridman： 太惊人了。

Pavel Durov: Yes — and it keeps growing fast. We constantly add new features for Premium users.

Pavel Durov： 是的——而且增长很快。我们不断为高级用户增加新功能。

But we’re careful not to clutter the app.

但我们非常注意不要让应用显得臃肿。

Most users don’t even realize those features exist — until they need them.

大多数用户甚至不知道那些功能存在——直到他们真正需要时。

Premium is one revenue stream.

高级订阅是一条收入来源。

The other is contextual advertising — no user tracking involved.

另一条是情境广告——不涉及任何用户追踪。

Of course, that means leaving 80% of potential revenue on the table.

当然，这也意味着我们放弃了大约 80% 的潜在收入。

But it’s worth it.

但这很值得。

Lex Fridman: And you’ve also started integrating blockchain-based payments, right?

Lex Fridman： 你们还开始整合区块链支付，对吧？

Pavel Durov: Yes. Telegram was the first app to let users truly own their digital identity — usernames, for instance, are NFTs.

Pavel Durov： 是的。Telegram 是首个让用户真正"拥有"自己数字身份的应用——例如用户名就是 NFT。

That ownership can’t be taken away by anyone — not even Telegram itself.

这种所有权不会被任何人夺走——哪怕是 Telegram 自己也不行。

We also take small commissions from in-app transactions — just 5%.

我们还从应用内交易中抽取极低的 5% 佣金。

We want developers to succeed. Their success is our success.

我们希望开发者成功——他们的成功就是我们的成功。

Telegram’s future will rely on empowering users and creators, not exploiting them.

Telegram 的未来在于"赋能用户与创作者"，而非"剥削他们"。

3:44:23 – TON (The Open Network 区块链生态)

Lex Fridman: Plus there’s a bot API and all these mini apps. Can you tell me about TON — The Open Network blockchain?

Lex Fridman： 另外还有机器人 API 和各种迷你应用。能谈谈 TON——The Open Network 区块链吗？

Pavel Durov: TON is a blockchain we started building in 2018 and 2019.

Pavel Durov： TON 是我们在 2018 至 2019 年间开始开发的区块链。

We needed a blockchain deeply integrated into Telegram because we believe blockchain enables freedom.

我们需要一个能与 Telegram 深度整合的区块链，因为我们相信区块链技术能赋予人们自由。

But at that time, Bitcoin and Ethereum weren’t scalable enough.

但当时的比特币和以太坊都无法承受 Telegram 那样的用户规模。

I asked my brother, "Can we build a blockchain that’s inherently scalable — that can split into smaller parts when needed?"

我问我哥哥："我们能否做出一个本身具备可扩展性的区块链？在用户量大时能自动拆分成更小的部分？"

He thought for a few days and said, "Yes — but it won’t be easy."

他思考了几天，说："能，但很难。"

So we started building it.

然后我们就开始动手。

We succeeded — TON was designed to scale infinitely using "shardchains."

我们成功了——TON 通过 "分片链（shardchains）" 实现了理论上的无限扩展。

But we couldn’t launch it ourselves because the SEC wasn’t happy with how we raised funds for it.

但我们没能亲自发布，因为美国证券交易委员会（SEC）对我们的融资方式表示不满。

They filed a case, and we had to abandon the project.

他们提起诉讼，我们不得不放弃项目。

Luckily, TON was open source — and the community took over.

幸运的是，TON 是开源的，社区接手并继续发展。

It was renamed "The Open Network" instead of "Telegram Open Network."

它从"Telegram Open Network"更名为"The Open Network"。

Now it’s thriving — used in many Telegram features.

如今它发展良好，并被用于 Telegram 的多个功能中。

For example, blockchain-based usernames, Telegram collectibles, and ad payments all run on TON.

例如基于区块链的用户名、收藏品以及广告支付系统，全都运行在 TON 上。

It’s also how we pay channel owners — we share ad revenue 50/50 with them.

它也是我们向频道主支付广告分成的方式——五五分账。

TON is the only way for creators to withdraw their earnings securely onecaitwo and instantly.

TON 是创作者安全即时提取收入的唯一方式。

You can even use TON to buy Telegram ads directly.

用户甚至可以用 TON 直接购买 Telegram 广告。

Lex Fridman: So TON is a Layer 1 blockchain, not built on Ethereum or Bitcoin?

Lex Fridman： 所以 TON 是一个第一层（Layer 1）区块链，不是建立在以太坊或比特币之上的？

Pavel Durov: Exactly. It’s fully independent — designed to handle billions of users.

Pavel Durov： 没错。它完全独立设计，能承载数十亿用户级别的使用量。

It’s incredibly fast — ideal for Telegram-scale transactions.

它速度极快，正好适合 Telegram 这种级别的交易需求。

Lex Fridman: You recently launched Snoop Dogg gifts based on TON. Will there be more celebrity collaborations?

Lex Fridman： 你最近用 TON 推出了 Snoop Dogg 的数字礼物系列。接下来会有更多名人合作吗？

Pavel Durov: Yes. I’m a big fan of Snoop. When his team reached out, I said, "Let’s do it."

Pavel Durov： 会的。我是 Snoop 的粉丝。他团队联系我时，我立刻说："干吧！"

We sold $12 million worth of gifts in 30 minutes.

我们在 30 分钟内售出价值 1200 万美元的礼物。

Lex Fridman: Wow — I bought a few myself.

Lex Fridman： 哇——我自己也买了几个。

Pavel Durov: (laughs) After that, many influencers reached out.

Pavel Durov： （笑）之后，很多名人都联系了我们。

These gifts are not just collectibles — they’re art.

这些礼物不仅仅是收藏品——更是艺术品。

Each one is vector-based, scalable, beautifully designed.

每一个都是基于矢量图形的，可无限缩放，设计精美。

Every gift references moments from the artist’s career — each has many versions, each unique.

每一件作品都引用了艺人生涯的经典片段——每件作品都有多个版本，每一件都独一无二。

We didn’t like old NFTs — they were mostly ugly and meaningless.

我们不喜欢传统的 NFT——它们大多又丑又无意义。

Telegram gifts reinvented NFTs — they’re aesthetically refined, socially relevant, and fully usable.

Telegram 的数字礼物彻底重塑了 NFT——既美观、又具社交属性，还能真正被使用。

You can display them next to your name on your Telegram profile.

你可以把它们展示在 Telegram 个人资料名旁。

They’ve become part of users’ digital identity.

它们已成为用户数字身份的一部分。

Some early gifts sold for $5, now trade for over $10,000.

一些早期礼物原价 5 美元，如今转售价超过 1 万美元。

Some people even make a living trading them.

甚至有人靠交易这些礼物赚钱。

One user earned several million dollars just from buying and selling gifts.

有个用户仅靠买卖礼物就赚了几百万美元。

Another made $12 million from mini apps last year.

还有人去年靠开发迷你应用赚了 1200 万美元。

Whenever I hear stories like that — it makes me proud.

每次听到这样的故事，我都感到自豪。

Telegram has become an economy — an ecosystem where millions of people build and create.

Telegram 已成为一个经济体——一个数百万人共同创造的生态系统。

3:54:13 – Bitcoin

Lex Fridman: Mini apps include games, tools, and services — apps within Telegram’s ecosystem. Let me ask you about crypto in general. You’ve been an early supporter of Bitcoin. You bought in very early and kept buying. Why? Do you think Bitcoin will reach a million dollars?

Lex Fridman： 这些迷你应用包括游戏、工具和服务——都是 Telegram 生态的一部分。那我想问问更宏观的加密货币问题。你是比特币的早期支持者，早早买入并持续持有。为什么？你觉得比特币会涨到一百万美元吗？

Pavel Durov: I was a believer from the very beginning. I bought my first few thousand Bitcoins in 2013.

Pavel Durov： 我从一开始就是比特币的信徒。我在 2013 年买入了最初几千枚比特币。

I didn’t care much about the price. I think I bought near the local peak — around $700 per Bitcoin.

我并不太在意价格。当时大约是每枚 700 美元，正好接近局部高点。

I just threw a couple of million dollars at it and forgot about it.

我投入了几百万美元，然后几乎没再管它。

A year later, when Bitcoin dropped to $300 or $200, people said, "Poor Pavel, what a mistake!"

一年后，比特币跌到 300、200 美元，人们都在说："可怜的 Pavel，真是个错误！"

My answer was, "I don’t care. I’m not selling. I believe in it."

我回答说："我不在乎。我不会卖。我相信它。"

I believe Bitcoin represents how money should work — decentralized, censorship-resistant.

我相信比特币代表了货币应有的形态——去中心化、不可审查。

Nobody can confiscate your Bitcoin or censor your transactions for political reasons.

没人能出于政治理由没收你的比特币或阻止你的交易。

That’s ultimate freedom.

这才是真正的自由。

Lex Fridman: So Bitcoin became your way to stay independent financially?

Lex Fridman： 所以比特币是你实现财务独立的方式？

Pavel Durov: Exactly. People assume if I rent nice places or fly private, it’s because I take money from Telegram — but Telegram actually costs me money.

Pavel Durov： 没错。人们以为我能租高档公寓、坐私人飞机，是因为我从 Telegram 套现。但事实上，Telegram 让我在亏钱。

Bitcoin is what allows me to stay afloat personally.

是比特币支撑着我的生活。

Lex Fridman: So you still hold it today?

Lex Fridman： 所以你现在仍然持有？

Pavel Durov: Yes. I believe Bitcoin will reach one million dollars.

Pavel Durov： 是的。我相信比特币会涨到一百万美元。

Governments keep printing money endlessly. Nobody’s printing Bitcoin.

各国政府还在疯狂印钞，而比特币的发行量是固定的。

Its inflation is predictable — and it ends.

它的通胀是可预测的——而且会终止。

Fiat currencies will fade. Bitcoin will remain.

法币会衰落，但比特币会留下。

3:57:12 – Two Chairs Dilemma（双椅困境）

Lex Fridman: Let me ask you a deeply philosophical question. In your first Telco interview, you had two interesting chairs behind you — a meme known in Russia as "Пики точёные или хуи дрочёные." What’s the meaning behind that dilemma?

Lex Fridman： 我想问一个哲学性的问题。在你第一次参加 Telco 采访时，你身后摆着两把有趣的椅子——俄罗斯的一个网络梗叫"Пики точёные или хуи дрочёные（削尖的木桩还是磨光的屌）"。这背后有什么含义？

Pavel Durov: (laughs) Not this exact dilemma, fortunately. It’s a riddle people in Russian prisons face — choosing between two bad options.

Pavel Durov：（笑）幸好我没遇到那种真实的困境。那其实是俄罗斯监狱里的一个比喻——在两个糟糕的选项中做选择。

Metaphorically, it describes situations where all choices are terrible — a lose-lose scenario.

从比喻角度，它象征着"无论怎么选都糟"的境地。

Entrepreneurs and political leaders often face such dilemmas too.

企业家和政治领导人也常常面对这样的两难困境。

The right answer is: don’t choose either. Redefine the question.

正确的答案是：不要选任何一个，要重新定义问题。

Find a way to turn the disadvantages of one option into tools to fix the other.

想办法把一个选择的劣势，转化为解决另一个选择的问题的工具。

Lex Fridman: (laughs) Someone online said, "Не ходи туда, где задают такие вопросы" — basically, don’t go places where you’re asked such questions.

Lex Fridman：（笑）有人在网上评论说："Не ходи туда, где задают такие вопросы"（别去那种问你这种问题的地方）。

Pavel Durov: (smiles) That’s one answer. If you end up there, you’ve already made a mistake earlier.

Pavel Durov：（笑）那也是一种回答。如果你陷入这种局面，说明你早前的决策已经出错。

Lex Fridman: You’re saying — you messed up already.

Lex Fridman： 也就是说——"你早就搞砸了"。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. But there’s a creative answer, too. You take the spikes from one chair and use them to cut off the objects from the other.

Pavel Durov： 正是。但也有创造性的解法：你可以把一把椅子的尖刺取下来，用来削掉另一把椅子的"部件"。

Lex Fridman: (laughs) That’s a very engineering solution.

Lex Fridman：（笑）这真是个"工程师式"的答案。

Pavel Durov: I believe that’s the right answer. Too often, we’re manipulated into choosing between two suboptimal paths.

Pavel Durov： 我认为这才是正确的答案。我们经常被操纵去在两个次优方案间做选择。

We should reject the framing entirely.

我们应该直接拒绝这种问题设定。

Politicians and corporations love to say, "You must pick A or B." But sometimes, the smartest thing is to say "Neither."

政治家和大公司都喜欢说："你必须选 A 或 B。"但最聪明的做法往往是说："我两个都不选。"

Lex Fridman: Speaking of absurdity — in your Oslo Freedom Forum interview, there was a strange object behind you. It looked like… a walrus penis bone?

Lex Fridman： 说到荒诞——你在奥斯陆自由论坛那次采访中，背后摆着个奇怪的东西，好像是……海象的阴茎骨？

Pavel Durov: (laughs) Yes, that’s correct.

Pavel Durov：（笑）没错。

It was a gift from the Evenki people — a Siberian and Mongolian tribe.

那是西伯利亚、蒙古一带的埃文基部落送给我的礼物。

They craft such items only for people they deeply respect — symbols of courage and leadership.

他们只会把这种物品送给他们极其尊敬的人，象征勇气与领导力。

Ironically, in Russian slang, "walrus penis" also means "nothing."

有趣的是，在俄语俚语里，"海象的阴茎"也被用来指"什么都没有"。

So sometimes, when a government or company demands something I won’t give, I just keep it in the background — as a polite message.

所以，有时当政府或企业要求我做我不会做的事时，我会把它摆在镜头后面——算是一种礼貌的暗示。

Lex Fridman: (laughs) A silent rebellion.

Lex Fridman：（笑）一种无声的反抗。

In the Soviet Union, rebellion often took poetic or symbolic form — through art, metaphors, or humor.

在苏联时代，反抗往往以诗意或象征的形式出现——艺术、隐喻或幽默。

Sometimes, a walrus bone says "F* you" better than words ever could.**

有时候，一根海象骨，比任何语言都更能表达"去你的"。

Pavel Durov: (laughs) They always ask about it at airports — both in France and the UAE.

Pavel Durov：（笑）在机场安检时，他们总会问起——无论是在法国还是阿联酋。

4:03:52 – Children（子女与遗产观）

Lex Fridman: There seems to be some confusion online about how many kids you have. Some say over a hundred. Can you clarify that?

Lex Fridman： 网上似乎有点混乱，大家都在猜你有多少个孩子，有人说超过一百个。能解释一下吗？

Pavel Durov: The truthful answer is — I don’t really know how many biological kids I have.

Pavel Durov： 真实的答案是——我自己也不清楚我究竟有多少个亲生孩子。

About fifteen years ago, I decided to become a sperm donor.

大约十五年前，我决定做精子捐赠者。

It started when a friend asked for help — he and his wife had fertility problems.

起初是一位朋友求助——他和妻子遇到了生育困难。

He said, "We don’t want to use anonymous donors. We want someone we know and respect."

他说："我们不想用匿名捐献者的精子，我们想找一个认识并尊重的人。"

At first I thought, "That’s ridiculous."

一开始我觉得这太荒唐了。

But then I realized — it’s actually a real issue for many couples.

但我后来意识到，这对许多夫妻来说是个非常现实的问题。

So I helped them, and then others.

所以我帮了他们，也陆续帮了其他人。

I can’t say I’m proud of it, but I think it was the right thing to do.

我不能说我因此感到骄傲，但我认为那是正确的事。

At that time, I thought I might not live long — things were dangerous, politically and otherwise.

当时我觉得自己可能活不久——政治和现实的风险都在加剧。

So if I could help some couples have children, why not?

所以我想，如果我能帮别人有孩子，那也算是一种延续。

Years later, while drafting my will, I decided not to distinguish between kids born naturally and through donation.

许多年后，在立遗嘱时，我决定不区分自然所生的孩子和捐献所生的孩子。

If they can prove DNA connection with me, they’ll have equal inheritance rights.

只要能证明与我有血缘关系，他们就有同等的继承权。

That caused quite a stir in the media.

这件事引起了媒体轰动。

Suddenly I got hundreds of messages — people claiming to be my kids, others asking me to adopt them.

我突然收到几百条消息——有人说自己是我的孩子，还有人请求我收养他们。

The memes were hilarious.

那些网络梗确实挺搞笑的。

But really, I don’t see anything wrong with donating sperm.

但我真心觉得，捐献精子没什么可羞耻的。

If anything, I think more people should do it.

甚至我认为，应该有更多人去做这件事。

Lex Fridman: So the "100+ kids" refers to your donations, not just your direct family.

Lex Fridman： 所以说，"超过一百个孩子"是指这些捐献，并非你自己的直系家庭。

Pavel Durov: Correct. I also have naturally conceived children.

Pavel Durov： 没错。我也有自然生的孩子。

But in my will, all biological children are treated equally.

但在我的遗嘱中，所有亲生子女一视同仁。

Lex Fridman: You also said none of them receive money early in life.

Lex Fridman： 你还说过，他们在成长阶段不会得到任何金钱资助。

Pavel Durov: Yes, because abundance kills motivation.

Pavel Durov： 是的，因为"富足会摧毁动力"。

Especially for boys — growing up proud of their father’s wealth instead of their own achievements is dangerous.

尤其对男孩而言——如果他们以父亲的财富为傲，而不是自己的成就，这是极其危险的。

I want them to build their own character before inheriting anything.

我希望他们在继承之前，先塑造自己的人格。

That’s why no child receives money for the first few decades of life.

所以在生命的前几十年，他们不会获得任何财产。

Even after that, dividing my estate among more than a hundred heirs means no one gets too much.

即便到了那时，财产分给上百人后，每个人得到的也不会太多。

Of course, some calculated it and said, "Still millions per person."

当然，也有人算过——"就算这样，每人也能分几百万美元。"

I’m not sure that helps.

我不确定这是不是好事。

Lex Fridman: That’s a profound view on wealth and purpose.

Lex Fridman： 这是对财富与人生目标非常深刻的看法。

It reminds me of the "Universe 25" mouse experiment — the paradise of abundance that led to collapse.

这让我想起"宇宙25号实验"——那个因为过度富足而走向崩溃的鼠类实验。

In the 1960s, John Calhoun gave mice unlimited food, water, comfort — and society collapsed.

20 世纪 60 年代，约翰·卡尔霍恩给老鼠提供无限的食物、水和舒适环境——结果整个群体崩溃了。

Violence rose, mothers abandoned babies, and the population fell to zero.

暴力增加，母鼠遗弃幼崽，最终种群灭绝。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Humans are similar — we evolved to overcome scarcity, not abundance.

Pavel Durov： 没错。人类也一样——我们的进化是为应对匮乏，而非沉溺于富足。

When everything is easy, purpose fades.

当一切都触手可及时，人就失去了目标。

Limits give meaning to life.

限制让生命有意义。

Ideally, those limits come from self-discipline, not external control.

理想情况下，这些限制应来自自律，而非外在的约束。

I was lucky to grow up poor — it gave me focus and resilience.

我很幸运在贫困中长大——那让我学会专注与坚韧。

My father was a university professor who sometimes went unpaid for months.

我父亲是一名大学教授，有时几个月拿不到工资。

My mother worked two jobs to support us.

我母亲同时打两份工来养家。

We wore the same jackets for years, bought second-hand.

我们常年穿着旧衣服，甚至是二手的。

It wasn’t easy, but it built character.

那段日子很艰难，但也塑造了我们的人格。

Lex Fridman: Scarcity shapes strength.

Lex Fridman： 匮乏造就力量。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. If we had everything, why do anything?

Pavel Durov： 正是如此。如果我们什么都有了，还干嘛去努力？

In the mouse experiment, the collapse was irreversible — social dysfunction became contagious.

在那个老鼠实验中，崩溃是不可逆的——社会功能障碍会像病毒一样蔓延。

The same can happen to humans.

人类也可能重蹈覆辙。

Lex Fridman: Especially now with AI and automation — abundance may become humanity’s next test.

Lex Fridman： 尤其是现在，AI 和自动化或许会让"富足"成为人类的下一个考验。

Pavel Durov: True. We must balance freedom and discipline — chaos and order.

Pavel Durov： 没错。我们必须在自由与自律、混乱与秩序之间找到平衡。

4:15:02 – Father（父亲与人生教诲）

Lex Fridman: Your father recently celebrated his 80th birthday. You said he gave you life advice then — that you should not just speakof your principles but livethem. Can you share what you’ve learned from him?

Lex Fridman： 你父亲最近刚过 80 岁生日。你说他当时给了你一些人生建议——"不要只讲原则，要去践行它们"。能分享一下你从父亲身上学到的东西吗？

Pavel Durov: I’m incredibly lucky to have my father.

Pavel Durov： 我非常幸运拥有这样的父亲。

He’s written countless books and papers on Ancient Rome — he’s a true scholar.

他写了无数关于古罗马的著作与论文，是一位真正的学者。

I always remember him working — typing on an old typewriter late into the night.

我永远记得他工作的样子——深夜还在老式打字机前敲字。

That image shaped my discipline.

那个画面塑造了我的自律。

He never told us how to live — he showed us through his actions.

他从不说教，只用行动树立榜样。

My brother and I learned by observing.

我和哥哥就是通过观察他而学到的。

Lex Fridman: Lead by example.

Lex Fridman： 以身作则。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. Words fade; actions stay.

Pavel Durov： 没错。语言会消散，但行动会留下。

He was also incredibly patient. My mother is brilliant and strong-minded, and sometimes she would test his patience.

他也极具耐心。我的母亲聪慧而有主见，有时会考验他的耐心。

He never lost his temper — always calm, always kind.

但他从不发火——始终温和而平静。

That emotional resilience impressed me deeply.

这种情绪上的坚韧给我留下了深刻印象。

Recently he told me something simple but profound: "If you do the right thing nine times out of ten, but fail once — your children will remember that one time."

最近他对我说了一句简单却意味深长的话："你十次中做对九次，但只要错一次，你的孩子就会记住那一次。"

If you tell your kids not to use smartphones, but you’re always on one yourself — it will never work.

如果你让孩子不要玩手机，但自己却整天盯着屏幕，那是毫无说服力的。

You have to live the lesson you teach.

你必须先活出你教的样子。

Lex Fridman: That’s powerful. It’s integrity — moral consistency.

Lex Fridman： 真有力量。这就是"正直"——道德上的一致性。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. He also taught me optimism: never despair, always look for light.

Pavel Durov： 没错。他还教我乐观：永远不要绝望，总要寻找光。

And honesty — being truthful even when it hurts.

以及诚实——即使真相会让人痛苦，也要保持诚实。

During our last conversation, he said something about AI that struck me.

在我们上次谈话时，他说了一句让我印象深刻的话，关于 AI。

He said: "AI may have intelligence, even creativity — but it will never have conscience."

他说："人工智能也许能拥有智慧，甚至创造力，但它永远不会拥有‘良知’。"

Machines can think, but they can’t be moral.

机器会思考，却不会有道德。

Lex Fridman: That’s beautiful — that conscience is what defines humanity.

Lex Fridman： 这太美了——良知正是人性的定义。

Even if AI gains consciousness, it will never have conscience.

即使 AI 获得意识，也永远不会有良心。

Pavel Durov: Yes. That was his message.

Pavel Durov： 是的，这是他传达的核心。

One of my life’s main goals is to never disappoint him.

我此生最重要的目标之一，就是永远不让他失望。

4:19:33 – Quantum Immortality（量子永生与思想的力量）

Lex Fridman: Another fascinating topic we’ve discussed is the power of the mind — the power of thought. Do you believe that your thoughts can shape your reality?

Lex Fridman： 我们之前谈过一个非常有趣的话题——思想的力量。你相信思维能塑造现实吗？

Pavel Durov: There are many explanations for why this seems to work.

Pavel Durov： 关于为什么这种现象似乎有效，有很多解释。

Most people agree that setting goals and staying positive helps you achieve them.

大多数人都认同：设定目标并保持积极的心态，有助于达成目标。

But it’s hard to believe that you can manifest things just by thinking, without effort.

但我很难相信光靠"想"就能让事情发生，而不付出行动。

Maybe some people can sit by a river and materialize things with pure thought — but I’m not one of them.

也许有些人能靠意念"坐在河边生万物"，但我不是那种人。

I believe you need optimism andlogical action working together.

我相信"乐观"必须和"逻辑行动"结合。

When you combine faith with effort, success becomes inevitable.

当信念与行动结合时，成功几乎是必然的。

Lex Fridman: So — prolonged effort, hard work, and positive focus.

Lex Fridman： 也就是说——长久的努力、专注与积极思维。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. Over many, many days.

Pavel Durov： 没错——一天天积累。

You can imagine our universe as a high-dimensional space where belief and logic let us navigate probability itself.

你可以把宇宙想象成一个高维空间，而信念与逻辑能让我们"操控概率"。

That might sound esoteric, but it’s not impossible.

听起来玄乎，但也未必不真实。

We’ve probably discovered less than 1% of what the universe really is.

我们对宇宙的认知，可能连 1% 都不到。

Lex Fridman: I like how you visualize it — shaping the probability field around you.

Lex Fridman： 我很喜欢你这种想象方式——让思想"改变你周围的概率场"。

Our focus and belief shift what is more or less likely to happen.

我们的专注与信念，会改变事件发生的"可能性分布"。

Billions of people together shape the collective world we live in.

八十亿人的信念与行为，共同塑造了我们所处的世界。

Pavel Durov: True — though I’m not sure we all share the sameworld.

Pavel Durov： 没错——但我不确定我们真的生活在"同一个"世界。

Maybe each of us lives in our own version of reality — and the universe constantly splits into infinite variations.

或许我们每个人都活在自己版本的现实中，而宇宙则在每一秒无限分裂。

Maybe every time I die, I just wake up in another version where I didn’t.

也许每次我"死去"，我都会在另一个我没死的宇宙醒来。

And this keeps repeating until, one day, we reach something like "quantum immortality."

这种分支不断延续，直到某个时刻，我们达到了"量子永生"。

Maybe I’m 1,000 years old in some version of reality, and long gone in others.

也许在某些宇宙中我已经活了一千岁，而在其他宇宙我早已消失。

Lex Fridman: Yes — that’s the idea of quantum immortality.

Lex Fridman： 是的——这正是"量子永生"的思想实验。

It’s a logical consequence of the Many-Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics.

它是量子力学"多世界诠释"的逻辑结果。

Consciousness can’t experience death — it always continues in one branch of reality.

意识无法体验死亡——它总会在某个现实分支中延续。

So in some universe, you’ve died countless times. But we’re in the one where you survived.

所以在无数个宇宙中你或许死过很多次，但我们现在处在"你活下来的那个"。

Pavel Durov: (smiles) I’m grateful for this version of reality then.

Pavel Durov：（笑）那我很感激活在这个"没死"的版本。

Hopefully we’ll have many more conversations in this timeline.

希望在这条时间线上，我们还能多聊几年。

Lex Fridman: (laughs) Me too, brother.

Lex Fridman：（笑）我也是，兄弟。

Thank you again — from me and from hundreds of millions of people who use Telegram — for standing up for freedom.

再次感谢你——不仅代表我，也代表全球数亿 Telegram 用户——感谢你为自由而战。

Pavel Durov: Thank you, Lex. I’m glad to still be alive to hear that.

Pavel Durov： 谢谢你，Lex。能活着听到这些，我很高兴。

4:26:05 – Kafka（卡夫卡与现代社会的荒诞）

Lex Fridman: I’d like to take this opportunity to talk about Franz Kafka — one of my favorite writers.

Lex Fridman： 我想借此机会谈谈我最喜欢的作家之一——弗朗茨·卡夫卡。

His novel The Trialhas eerie parallels to Pavel Durov’s case in France — both metaphorically and literally.

他的小说《审判》在隐喻与现实层面上，都与 Pavel Durov 在法国的案件有着令人毛骨悚然的相似。

Of course, The Trialis fiction, but it helps us understand the darker paths of human institutions.

当然，《审判》是虚构的，但它能帮助我们理解人类制度中潜藏的黑暗道路。

Works like 1984, Animal Farm, Brave New World, and The Trialserve as mirrors — warnings for civilization.

像《1984》《动物农场》《美丽新世界》《审判》这样的作品，都是文明的镜子——为人类敲响的警钟。

Let me zoom out and talk about Kafka himself.

让我稍微拉远一点，讲讲卡夫卡这个人。

He was an insurance clerk who wrote at night — he died young, almost unknown, and asked for his works to be burned.

他白天是保险职员，夜晚写作——英年早逝，生前籍籍无名，还嘱咐朋友烧掉自己的手稿。

Luckily, his friend Max Brod refused — giving us one of the greatest literary voices of the 20th century.

幸运的是，他的朋友马克斯·布罗德拒绝执行遗愿——因此我们才拥有了这位二十世纪最伟大的文学之声。

Kafka wrote about bureaucracy’s dehumanizing effect — how humans become case files, not souls.

卡夫卡描写了官僚体制如何剥夺人性——让人从"灵魂"沦为"档案编号"。

He captured the feeling of guilt even without a crime, and the anxiety of living in a mechanized world.

他揭示了"无罪的罪恶感"与"被机器化世界吞噬的焦虑"。

His style — short, declarative sentences describing the absurd — makes readers feelthe nightmare.

他的写作风格——简短而肯定的句子描述荒诞——让读者身临其境地感受噩梦。

Take The Metamorphosis: "As Gregor Samsa awoke one morning from uneasy dreams, he found himself transformed into a giant insect."

以《变形记》为例："格里高尔·萨姆沙从不安的梦中醒来，发现自己变成了一只巨大的甲虫。"

That opening line alone captures the essence of alienation and despair.

光是这开头一句，就凝聚了人类异化与绝望的全部。

Gregor becomes useless to his family, a burden, a non-person — dehumanized.

格里高尔被家人视为累赘、被社会遗忘——彻底丧失了人的身份。

It’s a metaphor for the modern worker, valued only when productive.

它是现代打工人的隐喻——当你不再"有用"，你就不再"存在"。

The Trial, on the other hand, explores how institutions destroy the human spirit through endless procedures.

而《审判》则揭示了官僚制度如何通过无休止的程序摧毁人的意志。

Josef K. is arrested for no clear crime and spends his life navigating a faceless, nameless legal machine.

约瑟夫·K 因未知罪名被捕，一生都在与无名的法律机器周旋。

The trial never actually happens — his life becomesthe trial.

审判从未真正开始——他的一生本身就是审判。

Kafka shows that tyranny doesn’t need to convict you — it only needs to keep you accused.

卡夫卡告诉我们，暴政不必判你有罪——只需让你永远被指控。

Eventually, Josef K. gives up resisting — he’s led quietly to a quarry and executed.

最终，约瑟夫·K 不再反抗——他被带到采石场，静静地被处决。

That’s tyranny’s final victory: when people surrender not from fear, but from exhaustion.

这就是暴政的最终胜利：人不是因恐惧屈服，而是因疲惫麻木而放弃。

Kafka’s genius was to show that institutions kill the soul long before they kill the body.

卡夫卡的天才之处在于揭示：制度在杀死肉体之前，先杀死灵魂。

Lex Fridman: I saw echoes of this in Pavel’s case — though I won’t draw direct parallels.

Lex Fridman： 我在 Pavel 的经历中看到了这种回声——虽然我不会直接做类比。

But I can say this: through it all, Pavel never showed despair.

但我可以说：整个过程中，Pavel 从未表现出绝望。

He remained calm, optimistic — unbreakable.

他依然冷静、乐观——不可摧毁。

Bureaucracy couldn’t wear him down.

官僚系统无法磨灭他的意志。

Lex Fridman: Let me also mention other works — The Castle, In the Penal Colony, A Hunger Artist.

Lex Fridman： 我还想提几部作品——《城堡》《在流放地》《饥饿艺术家》。

In The Castle, bureaucracy again rules through confusion and endless deferral.

《城堡》中，官僚体系通过混乱与拖延来统治。

In A Hunger Artist, a man starves himself in a cage for art — until nobody cares.

在《饥饿艺术家》中，一个人为艺术在笼中绝食——直到无人再在意他。

It’s prophetic — like today’s attention economy.

这极具预言性——就像今日的"注意力经济"。

People starve for fame, and die forgotten.

人们为名声饿死，却终被遗忘。

Kafka’s works are heavy — but they give hope.

卡夫卡的作品虽然沉重，却带来希望。

Because recognizing the disease means we’re still alive enough to name it.

因为当我们还能识别并命名这种"病"，说明我们还活着。

He reminds us to resist systems that dehumanize us.

他提醒我们，要抗拒那些让人失去人性的系统。

To fight for freedom and the human spirit.

要为自由与人的精神而战。

Lex Fridman: I believe we’ll endure — humanity always finds light.

Lex Fridman： 我相信我们终会坚持下去——人类总能找到光。

I have faith in us. I love you all.

我相信人类。我爱你们所有人。

•END•

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