导语：

硅谷知名博主 Lex 专访 Telegram 创始人 Pavel Durov，其生活方式令人瞩目：日做 300 个俯卧撑与深蹲、洗冷水浴，弃用手机，戒掉烟酒、咖啡、糖及精致食品。

他直言，自由是创造力与个人潜能的源泉，释放潜能需靠大量运动，且杜绝一切破坏神经元的物质 —— 这一理念也深深融入 Telegram。

作为超十亿用户的通讯平台，Telegram 早于行业推端到端加密 "秘密聊天"，还是唯一双平台支持 "可复现编译" 的开源通讯应用；它拒绝定向广告与成瘾信息流，靠 1500 万用户的 Premium 订阅和无数据追踪的情境广告盈利，以技术守护用户数字自由。

Lex Fridman专访Pavel Durov视频英文字幕，借助工具翻译成中文字幕，内容有删减。（来源：宛才兔）

0:00 – Introduction（引言）

Lex Fridman: The following is a conversation with Pavel Durov, founder and CEO of Telegram, one of the most popular messaging platforms in the world.

Lex Fridman： 以下是我与 Pavel Durov 的对话，他是 Telegram 的创始人兼首席执行官，这是全球最受欢迎的通讯平台之一。

Telegram has over a billion users and is known for its focus on privacy, speed, and freedom.

Telegram 拥有超过十亿用户，以其注重隐私、速度与自由而闻名。

06:15 – No Alcohol（禁酒）

Lex Fridman: You don’t drink alcohol, you don’t smoke, you don’t do drugs. What led you to that decision?

Lex Fridman： 你不喝酒、不抽烟、也不吸毒。是什么让你做出这样的选择？

Pavel Durov: It was pretty natural. My father is a scholar. He used to say that alcohol destroys neurons and brain connections.

Pavel Durov： 这对我来说是很自然的决定。我的父亲是一位学者，他常说酒精会破坏神经元与脑部连接。

I thought, "Why would I want that?"

我想，"那我为什么要这样做呢？"

Then when I was 17, I realized that all addictions are just ways of escaping reality.

后来在我17岁时，我意识到所有成瘾行为都只是逃避现实的一种方式。

I didn’t want to escape reality. I wanted to change it.

我并不想逃避现实，我想去改变它。

Lex Fridman: It’s interesting — most people drink socially, to relax or bond. Do you find it difficult to socialize without it?

Lex Fridman： 很有趣——大多数人喝酒是为了社交、放松或建立联系。你觉得不喝酒会让社交变得困难吗？

Pavel Durov: Not really. I’m perfectly comfortable with people drinking around me.

Pavel Durov： 完全不会。我在别人喝酒时也能自在地相处。

But I noticed that people who drink often believe alcohol makes them more interesting or funny. It’s an illusion.

但我注意到常喝酒的人常以为酒精让自己更有趣或更幽默——那是一种错觉。

In reality, it just lowers your awareness and dulls your mind.

实际上，它只是降低了你的觉察力，使头脑迟钝。

And if you can’t be interesting when you’re sober, you probably aren’t interesting at all.

如果你在清醒时都无法有趣，那你很可能本身就不有趣。

Lex Fridman: That’s a powerful way to put it. So you just decided early on that you would never try it?

Lex Fridman： 说得真好。所以你从早期就决定彻底不碰？

Pavel Durov: Yes, and I kept this rule ever since.

Pavel Durov： 是的，从那以后我一直坚持这条原则。

I also don’t drink coffee.

我也不喝咖啡。

Lex Fridman: No coffee?

Lex Fridman： 不喝咖啡？

Pavel Durov: Never.

Pavel Durov： 从未喝过。

I want my body to be as pure a system as possible, without relying on external stimulants or depressants.

我希望自己的身体尽可能保持纯净，不依赖任何外部刺激物或抑制剂。

14:20 – No Phone（没有手机）

Lex Fridman: You also don’t use a smartphone. You use a device with no SIM card. Why?

Lex Fridman： 你也不用智能手机，而是用一台没有 SIM 卡的设备。为什么？

Pavel Durov: Because phones are the most powerful surveillance devices ever created.

Pavel Durov： 因为手机是人类创造的最强大的监控设备。

Even if you switch them off, some of them can still track your location.

即便你把它关掉，有些手机仍然能追踪你的位置。

I prefer to use an iPod touch or an old phone without a SIM card, just connected to Wi-Fi when needed.

我更喜欢用 iPod touch 或没有 SIM 卡的老款手机，只在需要时连接 Wi-Fi。

That’s enough for communication and music.

这对通信与听音乐来说已经足够了。

Lex Fridman: But you’re the CEO of Telegram. How do you manage without having a phone on you all the time?

Lex Fridman： 但你是 Telegram 的 CEO，没有手机怎么随时管理事务？

Pavel Durov: I have my team and my devices where I need them.

Pavel Durov： 我的团队和设备在需要的时候都会在。

I don’t need to be constantly connected.

我不需要时时刻刻保持在线。

Being disconnected helps me focus.

保持离线让我更专注。

When you’re always online, you become reactive instead of proactive.

如果你总是在线，就会变得被动而非主动。

I prefer to design my day, not let notifications design it for me.

我宁愿自己设计一天的节奏，而不是被通知操控。

Lex Fridman: That’s rare discipline.

Lex Fridman： 这是一种罕见的自律。

Pavel Durov: It’s not even discipline once you understand the value of your attention.

Pavel Durov： 一旦你理解专注力的价值，这甚至算不上自律。

Your attention is the most valuable thing you have.

注意力是你最宝贵的资产。

Don’t give it away for free.

不要白白把它送出去。

20:16 – Discipline（自律）

Lex Fridman: So you live a life of extreme discipline — no alcohol, no phone, no coffee. How do you maintain such discipline day after day?

Lex Fridman： 所以你过着极度自律的生活——不喝酒、不用手机、不喝咖啡。你是如何日复一日保持这样的自律的？

Pavel Durov: It doesn’t feel like discipline anymore. It feels like freedom.

Pavel Durov： 这对我来说已经不像是自律，而更像是一种自由。

Most people think discipline means limitation. To me, it’s liberation.

大多数人认为自律意味着限制，对我而言，它代表解放。

When you remove distractions and addictions, you become free to create, to think.

当你消除干扰与成瘾后，你才真正获得创造与思考的自由。

Discipline is a prerequisite for creativity.

自律是创造力的前提。

Lex Fridman: You once said that you live like a monk. Do you mean that literally or metaphorically?

Lex Fridman： 你曾说过自己像僧侣一样生活，这是字面意义上的，还是比喻？

Pavel Durov: Both. My lifestyle is minimalistic. I eat once a day, sleep on a hard surface, and keep very few possessions.

Pavel Durov： 两者都是。我的生活极度简约：我每天只吃一顿饭，睡在硬床上，拥有极少的物品。

I try to own nothing I can’t carry.

我尽量不拥有任何无法随身携带的东西。

It’s not asceticism for its own sake — it’s about lightness, focus, and freedom.

这并非为了禁欲本身，而是为了轻盈、专注与自由。

Lex Fridman: Does that ever make you lonely?

Lex Fridman： 这样生活会让你感到孤独吗？

Pavel Durov: Not really. Loneliness is a problem only if you depend on other people for meaning.

Pavel Durov： 不会。孤独只有在你依赖他人寻找意义时才是问题。

If your purpose comes from within, solitude becomes strength.

如果你的目标来自内心，孤独就会变成力量。

I can spend days alone thinking, reading, writing — that’s my ideal state.

我可以独自待上好几天，只思考、阅读、写作——那是我理想的状态。

1:33:29 – Intense Education（教育）

Lex Fridman: Let’s talk about your childhood and education. You and your brother Nikolai are both incredibly accomplished. What was your early education like?

Lex Fridman： 我们来谈谈你的童年和教育。你和你的哥哥 Nikolai 都非常出色。你小时候的教育是怎样的？

Pavel Durov: Our parents were academics. My father was a professor of classical philology — he taught Latin and Ancient Greek.

Pavel Durov： 我们的父母都是学者。父亲是古典语言学教授，教授拉丁语和古希腊语。

He believed language trains the mind to think clearly.

他认为语言能训练人类思维的清晰度。

My mother was a teacher as well, very demanding but loving.

我的母亲也是教师，非常严格但也充满爱心。

We were surrounded by books all the time.

我们从小被书籍包围。

Lex Fridman: Were you pushed hard academically?

Lex Fridman： 你在学业上被逼得很紧吗？

Pavel Durov: Extremely. My father didn’t believe in "childhood."

Pavel Durov： 非常紧。他的信念是"童年不是用来浪费的"。

He thought childhood was the time to build discipline and focus.

他认为童年应该用来培养自律与专注。

I remember when I was five, he made me memorize Latin grammar tables.

我记得我五岁时，他让我背拉丁语语法表。

I cried at first, but later I was grateful.

起初我哭着背，但后来心怀感激。

Lex Fridman: That’s intense.

Lex Fridman： 听起来很严苛。

Pavel Durov: It was. But it shaped my mind.

Pavel Durov： 的确。但它塑造了我的思维方式。

Learning complex languages at an early age makes logic natural.

早期学习复杂语言会让逻辑思考变得自然。

You start to see structure in everything.

你会开始在一切事物中看到结构。

Lex Fridman: Was your brother Nikolai similar?

Lex Fridman： 你的哥哥 Nikolai 也是这样吗？

Pavel Durov: Yes, but he went even further.

Pavel Durov： 是的，但他走得更远。

He was a prodigy in mathematics.

他是个数学神童。

While I played with toys, he played with equations.

当我还在玩玩具时，他已经在玩方程式。

Lex Fridman: Did your parents compare you?

Lex Fridman： 你的父母会比较你们兄弟俩吗？

Pavel Durov: Constantly.

Pavel Durov： 经常。

It wasn’t always easy living in his shadow.

生活在他阴影下并不容易。

But instead of jealousy, I chose to learn from him.

但我没有嫉妒，而是选择向他学习。

Lex Fridman: What kind of learner were you?

Lex Fridman： 你是怎样的学习者？

Pavel Durov: Obsessive.

Pavel Durov： 痴迷型的。

When I found something interesting, I would dive in completely.

一旦对某事感兴趣，我就会全身心投入。

For example, when I discovered programming, I didn’t sleep for days.

比如我发现编程后，几天不睡觉。

I would code until I fell asleep at the keyboard.

一直写代码到趴在键盘上睡着。

Lex Fridman: You were self-taught?

Lex Fridman： 你是自学的吗？

Pavel Durov: Yes. My school didn’t teach computer science, so I learned from books.

Pavel Durov： 是的。学校不教计算机科学，我就从书里学。

My father thought I was wasting time, until I showed him my first game.

父亲以为我在浪费时间，直到我给他看我做的第一个游戏。

He smiled — which was rare.

他笑了——那是少见的时刻。

Lex Fridman: What kind of game was it?

Lex Fridman： 那是什么游戏？

Pavel Durov: A simple one, but I created it from scratch.

Pavel Durov： 很简单的游戏，但我完全从零做起。

It was about two tanks fighting each other on a pixel battlefield.

两辆坦克在像素战场上对战。

Very basic, but for me it was magic — to create something that moved, reacted, lived.

很基础，但对我来说充满魔力——能创造出会动、会反应、像生命的东西。

Lex Fridman: Did your parents eventually appreciate your path into technology?

Lex Fridman： 你的父母后来认可你选择科技这条路了吗？

Pavel Durov: Eventually, yes.

Pavel Durov： 最终认可了。

When they saw that technology could also be an art form.

当他们看到科技也可以是一种艺术形式时。

Lex Fridman: That’s a beautiful way to put it — "technology as art."

Lex Fridman： 这句话真美——"科技即艺术"。

Pavel Durov: It is.

Pavel Durov： 确实如此。

Writing code is like composing music — both require structure, rhythm, and emotion.

写代码就像作曲——都需要结构、节奏和情感。

Lex Fridman: What did discipline mean in your family?

Lex Fridman： 在你家庭中，自律意味着什么？

Pavel Durov: Discipline was everything.

Pavel Durov： 自律就是一切。

My father believed talent is nothing without consistency.

父亲认为，天赋若无持续性便毫无意义。

He’d say, "Even a genius who skips a day of work becomes average."

他常说："天才只要有一天懒惰，就变得平庸。"

That phrase stuck with me forever.

这句话我一生都记得。

Lex Fridman: You’ve clearly applied that principle.

Lex Fridman： 你显然贯彻了这个原则。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Every big thing in life starts with small, boring habits.

Pavel Durov： 是的。生活中一切伟大的事都始于微小而枯燥的习惯。

I learned that from my family.

这是我从家人那学到的。

1:49:58 – Programming and Video Games（编程与电子游戏）

Lex Fridman: You started coding at age ten, right? Your first creations were video games, and later, at twenty-one, you built the first version of VK single-handedly. Tell me about your programming journey that led to VK.

Lex Fridman： 你十岁就开始编程了，对吗？你最早做的是电子游戏，而在二十一岁时独自完成了 VK 的第一个版本。能讲讲你的编程历程吗？

Pavel Durov: I didn’t even have Internet access at first.

Pavel Durov： 起初我连上网的机会都没有。

I was fascinated by video games, but I didn’t have enough of them.

我非常迷恋电子游戏，但能玩的游戏太少。

So I decided to build my own.

所以我决定自己做游戏。

Lex Fridman: That’s how it always starts.

Lex Fridman： 所有程序员的故事都这么开始。

Pavel Durov: Yes, scarcity leads to creativity.

Pavel Durov： 没错，稀缺会激发创造力。

When you lack entertainment, you learn to create it.

当你缺乏娱乐时，你会自己去创造。

I started building simple two-dimensional games — turn-based strategies, puzzles.

我开始制作简单的二维游戏——回合制策略和解谜类。

My brother helped me optimize them.

哥哥帮我优化性能。

I remember once my game ran too slowly, and he showed me how to improve it.

记得有次游戏太卡，他教我怎么提升速度。

That’s how I learned about algorithms and optimization.

就这样我学会了算法与优化的概念。

Lex Fridman: So you learned by doing?

Lex Fridman： 所以你是通过实践学习的？

Pavel Durov: Exactly. It wasn’t "study first, code later." It was the opposite.

Pavel Durov： 没错。我不是"先学习后实践"，而是反过来。

First, I tried something; then I looked for the theory to explain it.

我先动手，再去找理论解释。

Lex Fridman: That’s the hacker spirit.

Lex Fridman： 这就是黑客精神。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Later, I even made games for my classmates.

Pavel Durov： 是的。后来我还为同学制作游戏。

We used to play tic-tac-toe — not the 3x3 version, but an infinite grid, five in a row.

我们那时玩"井字棋"——不是3×3，而是无限棋盘的"五连珠"。

It gets complicated fast.

这种玩法会变得很复杂。

My classmates were smart, math competition kids.

我的同学们很聪明，很多是数学竞赛冠军。

I wanted to win every time, so I created an AI opponent.

我想每次都赢，于是编了一个 AI 对手。

The computer calculated several moves ahead, like a primitive chess engine.

它会提前计算几步，就像原始的象棋引擎。

I trained against it until I could beat it every time.

我不断和它对弈，直到每次都能赢。

Eventually, no one wanted to play with me anymore.

最后没人愿意跟我玩了。

Lex Fridman: (laughs) You optimized the fun out of the game.

Lex Fridman：（笑）你把游戏的乐趣都优化没了。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. I killed the game.

Pavel Durov： 没错，我亲手"毁掉"了它。

But it taught me something important — competition drives improvement.

但这让我学到了重要的一课：竞争能驱动成长。

Lex Fridman: What languages were you using back then?

Lex Fridman： 那时你用的是什么语言？

Pavel Durov: Pascal at first, then C and C++.

Pavel Durov： 一开始是 Pascal，后来转向 C 和 C++。

I loved how direct it felt — telling the machine exactly what to do.

我喜欢那种直接操控机器的感觉。

You feel powerful, like talking to pure logic.

那感觉就像在与纯粹的逻辑对话。

Lex Fridman: So even as a kid, you were drawn to creation through logic.

Lex Fridman： 所以从小你就被"通过逻辑创造"的感觉吸引？

Pavel Durov: Yes, logic was my way to freedom.

Pavel Durov： 是的。逻辑是通往自由的路径。

When you can build something from nothing, nobody controls you.

当你能凭空创造出东西时，就没有人能控制你。

And that’s still my philosophy today.

这至今仍是我的人生哲学。

1:54:11 – VK Origins & Engineering（VK的起源与工程）

Pavel Durov: When I entered St. Petersburg State University, studying alone felt boring — everything was too easy.

Pavel Durov： 当我进入圣彼得堡国立大学时，仅仅学习让我觉得无聊——一切都太容易了。

So I created a small website for students in my faculty.

所以我为我们学院的学生建立了一个小网站。

It stored digital versions of lectures and exam answers.

网站里有数字化的讲义和历年考试答案。

That was revolutionary at the time — 25 years ago, almost no one did that.

那在当时（25年前）是革命性的，几乎没人这么做。

Soon, I added discussion forums and profiles.

很快，我又加上了论坛和个人资料功能。

Students could post notes, photos, and make friends.

学生们可以上传笔记、照片并交朋友。

It spread beyond my faculty to the entire university, then to others.

它从我的学院扩展到整个大学，接着蔓延到其他学校。

Within a few years, tens of thousands of students were using it.

几年内，这个学生网站已有数万人使用。

Lex Fridman: So you essentially built a social network before social networks.

Lex Fridman： 所以你在社交网络出现之前，就已经造了一个。

Pavel Durov: Yes. It had all the basic features — blogs, photos, messages, friend lists.

Pavel Durov： 是的。它拥有所有社交网络的基本功能——博客、照片、消息、好友列表。

Later, an old classmate who studied in the U.S. told me about Facebook.

后来，一个在美国留学的老同学告诉我有个叫 Facebook 的网站。

He asked, "Are you trying to build a Russian Facebook?"

他说："你这是在做俄罗斯版的 Facebook 吗？"

I said, "What’s Facebook?" and he showed me.

我回答："什么是 Facebook？"于是他给我看。

I realized we already had many of the same features.

我发现我们其实已经有很多相同功能。

But I also learned something important — sometimes you need to remove features to grow.

但我也学到一个重要的道理——有时为了成长，必须删除功能。

Lex Fridman: Simplify to scale.

Lex Fridman： 简化才能扩展。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. Simplicity is power.

Pavel Durov： 没错。简洁即力量。

Users want to understand your product in seconds.

用户希望几秒钟内就能明白产品的用途。

Too many features make it confusing.

功能太多会让人困惑。

So I started VKontakte — VK, meaning "In Touch."

于是我创建了 VKontakte，也就是 VK，意思是"保持联系"。

At first, it was just to stay in touch with my classmates — and meet new people.

最初只是想和大学同学保持联系——顺便认识些新人。

Lex Fridman: Including women?

Lex Fridman： 包括漂亮女生？

Pavel Durov: (laughs) Of course. I was 20.

Pavel Durov：（笑）当然，那年我才二十岁。

I wanted it to be efficient, so I wrote everything from scratch — no third-party libraries.

我希望网站高效，于是从零开始写，完全不用第三方库。

I obsessed over every line of code.

我对每一行代码都痴迷。

My brother Nikolai was in Germany at the time, doing post-doc work at Max Planck.

当时我哥哥 Nikolai 在德国马普研究所做博士后。

I called him and asked, "Where do I start?"

我打电话问他："我该从哪开始？"

He said, "Just build the login module first."

他说："先做一个登录模块。"

"Don’t even build logout — just log in."

"连退出都不用写，先实现登录。"

That advice changed my life.

那个建议改变了我的人生。

Once I saw "Hello, Pavel" appear on the screen after login, I knew what to do next.

当我在登录后看到屏幕上出现"Hello, Pavel"时，我知道该怎么继续了。

Within weeks, I added photo albums, messages, and a wall for posts.

几周内，我加上了相册、私信、留言墙。

I was the only employee for almost a year.

前一年，我是公司唯一的员工。

I did backend, frontend, design, customer support, and marketing.

我负责后台、前端、设计、客服和市场。

I even wrote the announcements myself.

公告也是我亲自写的。

Lex Fridman: That’s incredible. A one-man social network.

Lex Fridman： 太不可思议了——一个人做出整个社交网站。

Pavel Durov: It was pure obsession.

Pavel Durov： 完全是执念。

I’d work 20 hours a day.

我每天工作 20 个小时。

After launch, VK exploded — people loved it.

发布后，VK 迅速爆红——人们非常喜欢。

We soon had millions of users across Russia and Eastern Europe.

很快，我们的用户遍布俄罗斯和东欧。

Lex Fridman: And you built it all on PHP and MySQL?

Lex Fridman： 你是用 PHP 和 MySQL 做的吗？

Pavel Durov: Yes, at first. Then I added Memcached and switched to NGINX for speed.

Pavel Durov： 是的，最初用 PHP + MySQL，后来加上 Memcached，并改用 NGINX 提升速度。

Scaling was hard. One server became ten, then hundreds.

扩展很难。一台服务器变成十台，后来上百台。

Each database had to be split and distributed intelligently.

每个数据库都要拆分并智能分布。

That’s when I begged Nikolai to come back and help me.

那时我求哥哥回来帮我。

DDoS attacks started as VK became popular.

VK 火了之后，DDoS 攻击接踵而来。

Competitors and shady actors tried to take us down.

竞争对手和黑客都想干掉我们。

Every negotiation day with investors, the attacks intensified.

每当和投资人谈判时，攻击就更猛烈。

I spent countless sleepless nights fighting them.

我无数个夜晚没合眼，只为抵御攻击。

Lex Fridman: And when Nikolai came back, he rewrote the backend in C and C++?

Lex Fridman： 而当 Nikolai 回来后，他用 C 和 C++ 重写了后端？

Pavel Durov: Yes. He and a friend — both world-class programming champions — rewrote major components like search and ads engines.

Pavel Durov： 是的。他和一位编程竞赛冠军好友一起重写了主要模块，如搜索与广告引擎。

They made it lightning fast.

速度快得惊人。

In 2009, when I visited Silicon Valley, even Facebook engineers asked how VK loaded faster than them.

2009 年我去硅谷时，连 Facebook 工程师都问 VK 为何加载得比他们快。

The secret was efficiency.

秘诀就是高效。

We prioritized speed over everything else.

我们把速度放在一切之上。

Every 50 milliseconds mattered.

每 50 毫秒都重要。

Faster code means fewer servers, lower costs, and better UX.

代码越快，服务器越少，成本越低，用户体验越好。

That’s still how we build Telegram today.

这仍然是我们做 Telegram 的方式。

Lex Fridman: And that’s what makes it special — even on bad networks, Telegram feels instant.

Lex Fridman： 这正是 Telegram 特别之处——即使在糟糕的网络上也能即时响应。

Pavel Durov: Speed is respect for the user’s time.

Pavel Durov： 速度就是对用户时间的尊重。

2:11:24 – Hiring a Great Team（组建一支优秀的团队）

Lex Fridman: It’s interesting — just a tiny inefficiency in code can be multiplied millions of times when you have a billion users.

Lex Fridman： 很有意思——代码中一点点低效，在十亿用户级别下会被放大无数倍。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. And what’s worse, you often don’t even notice it.

Pavel Durov： 没错。更糟的是，你往往察觉不到。

Code doesn’t scream, "I could be faster!"

代码不会大喊："我还能更快！"

So it takes a certain kind of discipline — and a certain kind of person — to care enough to find and fix it.

所以你需要有纪律的人，有那种会在意每毫秒、愿意找出问题并改进的人。

Lex Fridman: So when you hire, you’re really looking for that — someone who has this craftsman mentality.

Lex Fridman： 所以在招聘时，你真正寻找的是具备工匠精神的人。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. And sometimes firing someone increases productivity.

Pavel Durov： 没错。有时解雇一个人反而能提升生产力。

For example, if you have two Android engineers struggling to meet deadlines, you might think you need a third.

举个例子，如果你有两个 Android 工程师总是完不成任务，你可能会想再招一个。

But sometimes, firing one solves the problem.

但有时，解雇其中一个就能解决问题。

The "B player" drags everyone down.

"B 级选手"会拖垮整个团队。

Lex Fridman: Steve Jobs said something similar — A players hire A players, B players hire C players.

Lex Fridman： Steve Jobs 也说过类似的话——A 级选手会招 A 级选手，B 级选手只会招 C 级选手。

Pavel Durov: Yes, and B players demotivate A players.

Pavel Durov： 是的，而 B 级选手会让 A 级选手失去动力。

When a great engineer sees a teammate asking wrong questions or lagging behind, it’s frustrating.

当优秀工程师看到队友总是问错问题、拖后腿时，会感到沮丧。

It kills creativity and morale.

这会扼杀创造力和士气。

So removing one wrong person can make the whole team happier and faster.

所以，去掉一个不合适的人，整个团队会更高效、更快乐。

Lex Fridman: And focus is key. Many people can’t concentrate deeply for long periods.

Lex Fridman： 而专注力是关键。很多人无法长时间深度专注。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. Most failures come from distraction, not lack of intelligence.

Pavel Durov： 没错。大多数失败不是因为智商不够，而是因为分心太多。

I prefer to hire people who can work intensely, alone, for long stretches of time.

我喜欢雇那些能长时间独立、高强度工作的工程师。

They should take responsibility for the entire module — end to end.

他们应该对整个模块全权负责，从头到尾。

Lex Fridman: You often use programming contests to recruit. Why?

Lex Fridman： 你经常通过编程竞赛招聘，这是为什么？

Pavel Durov: Because competition reveals the best.

Pavel Durov： 因为竞争能筛选出最优秀的人。

We organize coding contests — public, open, with real challenges.

我们举办公开的编程竞赛，题目都是真实的工程挑战。

We then hire the consistent winners.

我们随后会雇用那些持续获胜的人。

Some of them have been competing since they were teenagers.

有些人从十几岁就开始参加比赛。

After a few years, you can see who’s truly great — consistent performance, multiple languages, clean code.

几年后，你能看出谁是真正的高手——稳定发挥，多语言能力，代码整洁。

Lex Fridman: So it’s meritocracy in its purest form.

Lex Fridman： 这是一种最纯粹的精英制度。

Pavel Durov: Yes. No degrees, no fancy resumes — just skill.

Pavel Durov： 是的。没有学历门槛，没有漂亮简历——只有实力。

Sometimes, we find 18-year-olds who outperform veterans.

有时我们找到的18岁年轻人，比老手还强。

Lex Fridman: And once they join Telegram, how do you keep them motivated?

Lex Fridman： 那他们加入 Telegram 后，你如何保持他们的动力？

Pavel Durov: We give them freedom and responsibility.

Pavel Durov： 我们给他们自由和责任。

There’s no micromanagement.

没有微观管理。

If you hire great people, you don’t need to tell them what to do — just the goal.

如果你雇的是优秀的人，你只需告诉他们目标。

They’ll figure out the rest.

他们会自己解决剩下的事。

Lex Fridman: That’s rare — most companies over-manage.

Lex Fridman： 这很少见——大多数公司管理太多。

Pavel Durov: True. But Telegram’s small core team moves faster than 10,000-person corporations.

Pavel Durov： 的确如此。但 Telegram 的核心小团队，比上万人的大公司行动还快。

Because everyone we hire is elite — A players only.

因为我们只雇用精英——纯 A 级团队。

That’s why we can launch major new features every month.

所以我们每个月都能推出重要新功能。

Lex Fridman: That’s remarkable — a billion-user app, still innovating like a startup.

Lex Fridman： 真了不起——十亿用户的应用，仍然像创业公司一样创新。

Pavel Durov: That’s the beauty of building with the right people.

Pavel Durov： 这就是"选对人"的魅力所在。

2:20:40 – Telegram Engineering & Design（Telegram的工程与设计）

Lex Fridman: Because you’re so selective, Telegram hires slowly — everyone must truly earn their place.

Lex Fridman： 因为你要求严格，Telegram 的招聘很慢——每个人都必须靠实力赢得席位。

I sat in on one of your design meetings — it was fascinating.

我曾参加过你们的一次设计会议——非常有趣。

People debate small UI details as if they were life and death decisions.

你们团队在讨论界面细节时，就像在做生死决定。

And yet, this intensity produces magic.

但这种专注产生了奇迹。

Pavel Durov: Yes. The process is fast but deliberate — idea, prototype, feature.

Pavel Durov： 是的。我们节奏很快，但每一步都很有意识：构思、原型、上线。

That’s how Telegram keeps leading in features — seven years ahead on things like auto-delete, message editing, and replies.

这就是 Telegram 为什么能在功能上领先，比如自动删除、消息编辑和回复——比同行早了七年。

Lex Fridman: Even small design details like message replies — the vertical line, the snippet, the highlight — these are strokes of genius.

Lex Fridman： 甚至像消息回复这种小设计——左侧竖线、引用片段、点击高亮——都堪称神来之笔。

Pavel Durov: Funny story — when other messengers copied it, they even copied the same time intervals and colors.

Pavel Durov： 有趣的是——后来其他应用抄袭时，连时间间隔和颜色都一模一样。

Lex Fridman: That shows how much you’ve set the standard.

Lex Fridman： 这说明你们设立了行业标准。

Pavel Durov: We try to combine art and efficiency.

Pavel Durov： 我们努力让艺术与效率结合。

For example, our default chat background uses a four-color gradient that slowly shifts.

比如，Telegram 的默认聊天背景使用四种颜色渐变，且会缓慢变换。

Most people don’t notice it consciously, but they feelit subconsciously.

大多数人不会有意识地注意到，但会在潜意识中感受到它的舒适。

It adds warmth without distraction.

它让界面温润却不分心。

Lex Fridman: It’s true — the gradient feels alive.

Lex Fridman： 的确如此——那种渐变让人感觉界面"有生命"。

Pavel Durov: The hardest part was making it beautiful andfast on old phones.

Pavel Durov： 最难的是让它既漂亮又能在老手机上流畅运行。

We use vector graphics and procedural generation to keep it smooth.

我们采用矢量图形与程序化生成，保证平滑。

Every small animation is tuned for performance.

每一个小动画都经过性能优化。

When you send a message, the input box morphs into a bubble — it’s not just design; it’s physics.

当你发送消息时，输入框变成气泡——这不仅是设计，而是"物理表演"。

We recalculate each frame so that motion feels organic.

我们计算每一帧，让动效更自然。

Lex Fridman: And yet, it’s never flashy — it’s calm, pleasant, minimal.

Lex Fridman： 但这些动效从不花哨——始终沉稳、愉悦、极简。

Pavel Durov: Because design should disappear.

Pavel Durov： 因为好的设计应该"隐形"。

It should serve communication, not overshadow it.

它应该服务于交流，而不是喧宾夺主。

Lex Fridman: I love the message deletion effect — the "Thanos snap."

Lex Fridman： 我喜欢消息删除的特效——像"灭霸打响指"那样。

Pavel Durov: (laughs) That one was a nightmare to code.

Pavel Durov：（笑）那是噩梦级的开发任务。

Tens of thousands of particles dissolve like dust — in sync with UI shifts.

上万颗粒像尘埃般消散，还得与界面联动。

On Android, it was particularly tricky.

在 Android 上尤其棘手。

We had to ensure that messages above and below reflow smoothly as the deleted one fades.

我们必须确保被删除消息的上下文本在动画中平滑衔接。

Lex Fridman: It’s beautiful — feels almost poetic.

Lex Fridman： 那种动画太美了，甚至带着诗意。

Pavel Durov: That’s the goal. Even tiny interactions can bring joy.

Pavel Durov： 这就是目标。哪怕微小的操作，也能带来愉悦。

If we can make people 0.001% happier each day, it’s worth it.

如果我们能让人们每天多快乐 0.001%，就值得。

Lex Fridman: Steve Jobs and Jony Ive used to say the same — people feelthe love designers put into their work.

Lex Fridman： Steve Jobs 和 Jony Ive 也说过——人们能感受到设计师倾注的爱。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. People love when others care.

Pavel Durov： 没错。人会因为被"用心对待"而喜欢某个产品。

Lex Fridman: And that extends to the art side — your stickers, animated emojis, and now the vector-based GIFs.

Lex Fridman： 这份"用心"也体现在艺术层面——你们的贴纸、动表情、乃至矢量 GIF。

Pavel Durov: Stickers were another revolution — we launched them three years and eight months before WhatsApp.

Pavel Durov： 贴纸是另一场革命——我们比 WhatsApp 早三年八个月推出。

Ours were vector-based animations, not heavy GIFs.

我们用矢量动画，而不是笨重的 GIF。

Each sticker is just a few kilobytes but runs at 60 frames per second.

每个贴纸仅几 KB，却能以每秒 60 帧流畅播放。

It was insanely difficult to make.

实现这一点极其困难。

We had to recruit artists who could think like engineers.

我们必须找既懂艺术又懂工程的创作者。

Lex Fridman: That’s rare — a true blend of art and math.

Lex Fridman： 这很罕见——艺术与数学的结合。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. True quality exists at that intersection.

Pavel Durov： 没错。真正的品质诞生于两者交汇处。

Then came animated emojis — and now Telegram Gifts, our collectible blockchain-based art.

接着是动表情，而现在是 Telegram Gifts——基于区块链的可收藏数字艺术。

People can gift them, trade them, and display them on their profile.

用户可以赠送、交易、并在个人主页展示这些礼物。

They’re fun andmeaningful.

它们既有趣又有意义。

Lex Fridman: Telegram feels like where art meets engineering — joy meets precision.

Lex Fridman： Telegram 就像艺术与工程的交汇点——快乐与精确并存。

Pavel Durov: That’s exactly how we see it.

Pavel Durov： 这正是我们对 Telegram 的定义。

2:39:42 – Encryption（加密）

Lex Fridman: Another feature, on the more serious side, is end-to-end encryption. You led the industry in that. It was launched one year and three months ahead. Can you speak to why you decided to add end-to-end encryption and how you developed the encryption algorithm in the beginning? What was your thinking behind that?

Lex Fridman： 另一个严肃的功能是端到端加密。你在这方面引领了整个行业，比别人早推出一年三个月。能谈谈你为什么决定加入端到端加密，以及最初如何设计加密算法吗？你的思考逻辑是什么？

Pavel Durov: In 2013, when we were launching Telegram, we were aware of the serious issue with privacy that Edward Snowden made very clear.

Pavel Durov： 2013 年我们创建 Telegram 时，就意识到隐私是一个严重问题，而 Edward Snowden 已经让全世界看清了这一点。

We thought, yes, we’re designing this product in a way that is already extremely secure, but we want to make sure that not even we can access user messages.

我们认为，虽然我们的设计已经非常安全，但我们希望确保连我们自己都无法访问用户消息。

We understood very clearly that a bunch of people who were born in Russia don’t necessarily inspire trust.

我们非常清楚——来自俄罗斯的一群人，不一定能让全球用户放心。

That’s why we made Telegram open source — all our apps have been available on GitHub since 2013.

这就是我们将 Telegram 开源的原因——自 2013 年起，我们的所有客户端都在 GitHub 上公开。

And then we added end-to-end encryption in our Secret Chats, which WhatsApp copied a few years later.

随后我们在"秘密聊天"中引入了端到端加密，而 WhatsApp 在几年后才照搬这个功能。

We launched it one year and three months before they even started testing it.

在他们开始测试之前，我们就已经提前一年三个月发布了。

They rolled this out in 2016, three years after us, and the only reason I think the rest of the industry had to do it is because we set the standard.

他们到 2016 年才推出，比我们晚了三年。我认为整个行业之所以被迫跟进，是因为我们设立了新标准。

Pavel Durov: It was incredibly important back then. But at the same time, we realized certain limitations of end-to-end encryption.

Pavel Durov： 在当时这非常重要，但我们也意识到端到端加密有一些限制。

Within that design, you can’t support very large chat communities with persistent histories.

在这种架构下，无法支持有持续聊天记录的超大群组。

You can’t support huge one-to-many channels.

也无法支持数十万人的广播频道。

You’d have issues with bots, automation, and multi-device sync.

同时还会在机器人、自动化、多设备同步上遇到难题。

People would end up losing some of their shared documents.

用户甚至可能丢失文件。

So we developed a hybrid model — users can choose their preferred level of encryption depending on use case.

因此我们开发了混合模式——让用户根据用途自行选择加密级别。

Lex Fridman: That’s why you chose to go opt-in for end-to-end encryption.

Lex Fridman： 这就是你们选择"自愿启用"端到端加密的原因。

The trade-off is between absolute privacy and usability.

这种设计在"极致隐私"和"可用性"之间取得平衡。

For people who really care about specific messages, there’s Secret Chats. For teams, normal encrypted chats are more practical.

对极度注重隐私的用户，有"秘密聊天"；而团队协作中，普通加密聊天更实用。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Secret Chats are not just end-to-end encrypted — they also disable forwarding, screenshots, and backups.

Pavel Durov： 是的。"秘密聊天"不仅端到端加密，还禁止转发、截图和云备份。

Those limitations are both a feature and a bug.

这些限制既是特性也是代价。

When we tried to use them internally for team work, it was impossible — you can’t share files easily.

我们自己尝试用它来办公时，发现根本不行——文件分享都很困难。

So, if you want total privacy, use Secret Chats. If you want collaboration, use regular Telegram.

因此，如果你要绝对隐私，就用"秘密聊天"；如果你要协作，就用普通聊天。

Lex Fridman: You personally believe that Secret Chats are the most secure form of communication today?

Lex Fridman： 你认为"秘密聊天"是当今最安全的通讯方式？

Pavel Durov: Yes. I truly believe that. Nothing else matches it in balance of cryptographic rigor and usability.

Pavel Durov： 是的，我真这么认为。没有任何其他应用能在加密强度和使用体验上达到这种平衡。

2:44:39 – Open Source（开源）

Lex Fridman: We should say that there’s a lot of other aspects to this that are important. For example, Telegram is the only app that has open-source reproducible builds for both Android and iOS. Why is this important?

Lex Fridman： 我们应该提到，这里面还有许多重要的方面。例如，Telegram 是唯一在 Android 和 iOS 上都支持"可复现编译"的开源应用。这为什么重要？

Pavel Durov: You need reproducible builds to verify that the app really does what it claims — that it encrypts data exactly as described.

Pavel Durov： 你需要"可复现编译"，才能验证应用是否真的如它所宣称的那样工作——确实按描述方式加密数据。

For that, your app must be open source so independent researchers can inspect it.

要做到这一点，应用必须开源，让独立研究人员能检查代码。

Telegram has been open source since 2013.

Telegram 自 2013 年起就已完全开源。

Apps like WhatsApp have never been open source, so you don’t really know what they’re doing.

像 WhatsApp 这样的应用从未开源，因此外界根本不知道它们在做什么。

What’s crucial, though, is ensuring that the app users download from the App Store exactly matches the public source code.

但关键是确保用户从 App Store 下载的应用，与 GitHub 上公开的源代码完全一致。

That’s what reproducible builds enable.

这正是"可复现编译"的意义所在。

Lex Fridman: And Telegram is the only popular messaging app that offers this.

Lex Fridman： 而 Telegram 是唯一实现这一点的主流通讯软件。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Both on Android and iOS, anyone can verify the build.

Pavel Durov： 是的。无论 Android 还是 iOS，任何人都能验证二进制是否与源码一致。

It’s about trust and transparency.

这关乎信任与透明度。

When I say that Secret Chats are the most secure way of communicating, I mean it — because it’s verifiable.

当我说"秘密聊天"是最安全的通信方式时，我是认真的——因为它可以被验证。

Lex Fridman: And none of your major competitors do this — not WhatsApp, not Signal, not iMessage.

Lex Fridman： 而你的主要竞争者没有一个做到这一点——无论是 WhatsApp、Signal 还是 iMessage。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. And that’s worrying.

Pavel Durov： 没错，这其实令人担忧。

None of them provide verifiable builds.

它们都无法验证二进制与源码的一致性。

And we’ve gone further — our entire backend stack is written internally from scratch.

而我们更进一步——Telegram 的整个后端栈都是从零自主开发。

Not just the encryption — the servers, the databases, even our programming language for APIs.

不仅是加密算法，连服务器、数据库，甚至后端 API 的编程语言都是我们自己写的。

Lex Fridman: That’s an enormous engineering challenge.

Lex Fridman： 这是一项巨大的工程挑战。

Pavel Durov: It is. But it makes the system far more secure.

Pavel Durov： 是的，但这样系统安全性高得多。

Snowden’s revelations showed that even widely used open-source libraries can be compromised.

Snowden 的披露证明，即使是广泛使用的开源库也可能被植入后门。

So we minimize dependencies, and we code everything we can ourselves.

因此我们尽量减少依赖，能自己写的都自己写。

It’s hard — but it’s the only way to know exactly what your code does.

这很难——但这是唯一能确保你完全了解代码行为的方法。

Lex Fridman: Most companies rely heavily on open-source libraries. It’s almost impossible to avoid.

Lex Fridman： 大多数公司都严重依赖开源库，几乎不可能完全避免。

Pavel Durov: True. We still use Linux on our servers — that’s unavoidable.

Pavel Durov： 的确如此。我们的服务器仍然运行 Linux——这是无法避免的。

But beyond that, Telegram is far more self-reliant than any other app I know.

但除此之外，Telegram 比我所知的任何其他应用都更加自给自足。

We build almost everything ourselves.

我们几乎所有核心组件都自主构建。

That’s why our attack surface is so small — and our performance is so high.

这也是我们攻击面小、性能高的原因。

3:35:31 – Money（钱）

Lex Fridman: I have to ask you about Telegram’s business side. You own 100% of it, right?

Lex Fridman： 我想问一下 Telegram 的商业运作部分。你现在仍然拥有它 100% 的股份，对吧？

Pavel Durov: Yes. I’ve never sold a single share.

Pavel Durov： 是的。我从未卖出过任何股份。

Lex Fridman: And as far as I know, you invested hundreds of millions of your own money into it. You even take a salary of… what, one dollar?

Lex Fridman： 据我所知，你投入了上亿美元的自有资金在 Telegram 里。你的工资好像是……一美元？

Pavel Durov: One dirham — that’s one third of a dollar.

Pavel Durov： 一迪拉姆——大约三分之一美元。

Lex Fridman: (laughs) And 2024 was the first year Telegram became profitable?

Lex Fridman： （笑）而 2024 年是 Telegram 第一次实现盈利？

Pavel Durov: Correct. And the interesting part is — we did it without exploiting user data.

Pavel Durov： 没错。最有趣的是——我们并没有通过剥削用户数据来实现盈利。

Lex Fridman: You’re leaving a lot of money on the table by not running targeted ads, like Facebook or TikTok.

Lex Fridman： 不像 Facebook 或 TikTok 那样做定向广告，你其实放弃了大量潜在收入。

Pavel Durov: True. We only show contextual ads in public channels — based on the channel’s topic, not personal data.

Pavel Durov： 确实。我们只在公开频道展示"基于话题"的广告，而不是"基于个人数据"的。

Lex Fridman: And you also refuse to add a "news feed," the most addictive part of social media.

Lex Fridman： 你还拒绝引入"信息流"那种让人上瘾的功能。

Pavel Durov: Yes. Those feeds exploit users’ attention and emotions — that’s not the product I want to build.

Pavel Durov： 是的。那种功能是在剥削用户的注意力和情绪——我不想做那样的产品。

Lex Fridman: So how did you manage to make Telegram profitable, then?

Lex Fridman： 那么你是怎么让 Telegram 实现盈利的？

Pavel Durov: We had to innovate — to find ethical ways to sustain growth.

Pavel Durov： 我们必须创新——找到既能维持增长又符合道德的盈利方式。

Money was never the goal for me.

对我来说，赚钱从来不是目标。

When I sold VK shares under pressure, I reinvested almost everything into Telegram.

当年我被迫卖掉 VK 的股份后，几乎把全部资金都投入了 Telegram。

I’ve never taken more money out than I’ve put in.

我从未从 Telegram 提取比投入更多的资金。

Lex Fridman: So what’s the main source of revenue now?

Lex Fridman： 那么现在主要的收入来源是什么？

Pavel Durov: Telegram Premium — we launched it in 2022.

Pavel Durov： Telegram Premium——我们在 2022 年推出的订阅服务。

It offers extra tools for professionals and power users — but all basic features remain free.

它为专业用户提供更多工具，但所有基础功能仍然免费。

It was unprecedented for a messenger app at the time.

在当时，这对即时通讯应用来说是前所未有的。

Now we have over 15 million paying subscribers.

目前我们有超过 1500 万付费订阅者。

That’s over half a billion dollars in recurring yearly revenue.

这每年带来超过 5 亿美元的持续收入。

Lex Fridman: That’s huge.

Lex Fridman： 太惊人了。

Pavel Durov: Yes — and it keeps growing fast. We constantly add new features for Premium users.

Pavel Durov： 是的——而且增长很快。我们不断为高级用户增加新功能。

But we’re careful not to clutter the app.

但我们非常注意不要让应用显得臃肿。

Most users don’t even realize those features exist — until they need them.

大多数用户甚至不知道那些功能存在——直到他们真正需要时。

Premium is one revenue stream.

高级订阅是一条收入来源。

The other is contextual advertising — no user tracking involved.

另一条是情境广告——不涉及任何用户追踪。

Of course, that means leaving 80% of potential revenue on the table.

当然，这也意味着我们放弃了大约 80% 的潜在收入。

But it’s worth it.

但这很值得。

We also take small commissions from in-app transactions — just 5%.

我们还从应用内交易中抽取极低的 5% 佣金。

We want developers to succeed. Their success is our success.

我们希望开发者成功——他们的成功就是我们的成功。

Telegram’s future will rely on empowering users and creators, not exploiting them.

Telegram 的未来在于"赋能用户与创作者"，而非"剥削他们"。

4:19:33 – Quantum Immortality（量子永生与思想的力量）

Lex Fridman: Another fascinating topic we’ve discussed is the power of the mind — the power of thought. Do you believe that your thoughts can shape your reality?

Lex Fridman： 我们之前谈过一个非常有趣的话题——思想的力量。你相信思维能塑造现实吗？

Pavel Durov: There are many explanations for why this seems to work.

Pavel Durov： 关于为什么这种现象似乎有效，有很多解释。

Most people agree that setting goals and staying positive helps you achieve them.

大多数人都认同：设定目标并保持积极的心态，有助于达成目标。

But it’s hard to believe that you can manifest things just by thinking, without effort.

但我很难相信光靠"想"就能让事情发生，而不付出行动。

Maybe some people can sit by a river and materialize things with pure thought — but I’m not one of them.

也许有些人能靠意念"坐在河边生万物"，但我不是那种人。

I believe you need optimism andlogical action working together.

我相信"乐观"必须和"逻辑行动"结合。

When you combine faith with effort, success becomes inevitable.

当信念与行动结合时，成功几乎是必然的。

Lex Fridman: So — prolonged effort, hard work, and positive focus.

Lex Fridman： 也就是说——长久的努力、专注与积极思维。

Pavel Durov: Exactly. Over many, many days.

Pavel Durov： 没错——一天天积累。

You can imagine our universe as a high-dimensional space where belief and logic let us navigate probability itself.

你可以把宇宙想象成一个高维空间，而信念与逻辑能让我们"操控概率"。

That might sound esoteric, but it’s not impossible.

听起来玄乎，但也未必不真实。

We’ve probably discovered less than 1% of what the universe really is.

我们对宇宙的认知，可能连 1% 都不到。

Lex Fridman: I like how you visualize it — shaping the probability field around you.

Lex Fridman： 我很喜欢你这种想象方式——让思想"改变你周围的概率场"。

Our focus and belief shift what is more or less likely to happen.

我们的专注与信念，会改变事件发生的"可能性分布"。

Billions of people together shape the collective world we live in.

八十亿人的信念与行为，共同塑造了我们所处的世界。

Pavel Durov: True — though I’m not sure we all share the sameworld.

Pavel Durov： 没错——但我不确定我们真的生活在"同一个"世界。

Maybe each of us lives in our own version of reality — and the universe constantly splits into infinite variations.

或许我们每个人都活在自己版本的现实中，而宇宙则在每一秒无限分裂。

Maybe every time I die, I just wake up in another version where I didn’t.

也许每次我"死去"，我都会在另一个我没死的宇宙醒来。

And this keeps repeating until, one day, we reach something like "quantum immortality."

这种分支不断延续，直到某个时刻，我们达到了"量子永生"。

Maybe I’m 1,000 years old in some version of reality, and long gone in others.

也许在某些宇宙中我已经活了一千岁，而在其他宇宙我早已消失。

Lex Fridman: Yes — that’s the idea of quantum immortality.

Lex Fridman： 是的——这正是"量子永生"的思想实验。

It’s a logical consequence of the Many-Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics.

它是量子力学"多世界诠释"的逻辑结果。

Consciousness can’t experience death — it always continues in one branch of reality.

意识无法体验死亡——它总会在某个现实分支中延续。

So in some universe, you’ve died countless times. But we’re in the one where you survived.

所以在无数个宇宙中你或许死过很多次，但我们现在处在"你活下来的那个"。

Pavel Durov: (smiles) I’m grateful for this version of reality then.

Pavel Durov：（笑）那我很感激活在这个"没死"的版本。

Hopefully we’ll have many more conversations in this timeline.

希望在这条时间线上，我们还能多聊几年。

Lex Fridman: (laughs) Me too, brother.

Lex Fridman：（笑）我也是，兄弟。

Thank you again — from me and from hundreds of millions of people who use Telegram — for standing up for freedom.

再次感谢你——不仅代表我，也代表全球数亿 Telegram 用户——感谢你为自由而战。

Pavel Durov: Thank you, Lex. I’m glad to still be alive to hear that.

Pavel Durov： 谢谢你，Lex。能活着听到这些，我很高兴。

•END•

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